Leading Beyond Fear: Trust, Courage & Making Work Human with Prina Shah

Episode 45: Leading Beyond Fear: Trust, Courage & Making Work Human with Prina Shah

Reimagining HR with Trina Sunday explores the intersection of fear and trust

Trina Sunday: Fear and trust sit at opposite ends of the employee experience and HR often sits right in the middle, absorbing fear, protecting trust and helping leaders navigate both. This conversation with my colleague and friend Prina Shah explores what happens when we start leading with heart instead of fear. It’s a two way chat, a human first conversation between friends exploring the intersection of trust, fear based leadership and courageous change. Helping HR and leaders become the catalyst for creating workplaces and that are genuinely people centred. Welcome to Reimagining HR with Trina Sunday, the rule breaking podcast where we challenge our thinking and our current people practises. This podcast is for time poor HR teams and business leaders who are feeling the burn, lacking laughs and not feeling the love. I’m Trina, your host and I’m here to cut through the bs, explore different ways of thinking and create high impact HR functions because happier, healthier organisations are better for our people and our bottom line. So if you are keen to flip traditional HR on its head, hit the follow or subscribe button so you’re the first to know when new episodes drop. I’m here to help and also to shake things up. So let’s get started.

Prina Shah helps leaders and teams to make work meaningful

Welcome and let’s start chatting about leading beyond fear. It’s all about trust, courage and making work human. For me that’s about having HR be courageous change makers, redefining the future of work. It’s about heart, work and naturally that connects with Prina’s mission of making work a lot more meaningful. The meaningful work. Based in Perth and working globally, Prina Shah is a workplace transformation consultant, trainer, executive coach, speaker and author who helps leaders and teams to make work meaningful. She partners with CEOs and executives to optimise culture, build leadership capability and drive practical, lasting change. Her work’s now off being straight talking, actionable and results focused on. She is my kind of people. Welcome Prina. Thanks for joining me.

Trina: Fear and trust are at opposite ends of the employee experience

So there’s been a few posts floating around on LinkedIn and my dear friend and colleague Prina Shah and I thought that we would have a chat around trust and fear and what it’s doing in our workplaces. And fear and trust to me sits at opposite ends of the employee experience and for me HR often sits right in the middle, absorbing the fear, protecting the trust and helping leaders navigate both. Prina’s obviously doing a lot of work with leaders and we’re hoping that this casual conversation is going to explore what happens when we start leading with heart instead of fear. And so I’m really happy to have this chat. Prina, what’s showing up for you.

Prina Shah: Me too. Oh, my gosh. So thank you so much for commenting on my post on LinkedIn. It was such an interesting comment that you posted about leaders coming at things from, I guess, a scarcity and a bit of a fearful mindset at the moment. And then, you know, you and I got talking, so let’s talk about this in detail. So let’s just do this. What’s coming across at the moment? So you really got me thinking about this, Trina, in terms of what does fear look like, especially in leadership. Today, I’m seeing a lot. I don’t know if it’s just because of, you know, the time of the year, it’s nearly Christmas, people feeling burnt out, overwhelmed, everything else in between. But I’ve got some ideas. So what I’m seeing, not across the board, but definitely with leaders who need help, let’s just call it. I’m seeing a sense of control, definitely control perfectionism, which then often leads to indecision. Trina. Obsessing over KPIs. what else am I seeing? People pleasing. That’s one part of it as well. Talent hoarding as well. Not letting their people go or not sharing their people as well. That’s another biggie I’m seeing. And essentially, this is pretty much micromanagement under the guise of high standards. Really? Yeah. So, yeah, when you. When you got talking about that on LinkedIn, I thought, oh, actually, I am seeing that in certain pockets.

Trina Sunday: And there’s lots of habits in that. Right. So I think, it’s one of the things I’d mention to you where, you know, when I look at it through a HR lens, it’s the compliance aspects, the command and control. You know, for me, it is compliance over courage. I’m not seeing as much courage as I did a few years ago. And the risk aversion, I talk about that and have. I know with you around, that being disguised as safety, you know, like, we can’t do that. We’ve got to keep our people safe. And it’s like. There’s nothing safe about avoidance, you know?

Prina Shah: Exactly.

Trina Sunday: There’s nothing safe about indecision.

Prina Shah: Right.

Trina Sunday: No.

Trina says some leaders are avoiding difficult conversations because they fear fear

Prina Shah: Can I jump onto this one? I love compliance over courage. So one thing I’m really seeing, and I don’t know if you’re coming across this as well, so psychosocial, all of that kind of stuff, it’s not new, but it is new to some. Um. And, you know, lots of leaders have had training or upskilling in this, Trina. Some of my clients are scared. Oh my gosh. With all of this stuff to the point where they’ve become avoidant now in having that conversation, in, dealing with that issue in case something blows up, you know, so they are just doing this. They’re putting their hands up and just not dealing with things. I think that’s one factor potentially as well. Have you come across this? Do you see this?

Trina Sunday: Yeah, I am seeing that. And I think that part of it is, you know, and it’s the same thing we’ve had socially and societally. I think around political correctness. We have people that throw it around that’s like, oh, that’s so, you know, everything’s so PC now. I just can’t be a normal person might define what a normal person is for a start. But all that means is that from a, uh. Whether it’s emotional intelligence or empathy or for me, it’s just knowing who’s around you. Right. Like, and having confident conversations that come from a place of good intent. Yes. And I feel like even the conversations in our workplaces where things are sticky, tricky and everything in between, we’re avoiding those conversations. I think there is a capability gap and I think, and I’ll, um, welcome your thought around this in a minute, but there is a capability gap, I think where we’ve had some people that are in leadership people, leadership roles, that really haven’t had a chance to practise this and build the management muscle, you know, like where it becomes second nature. And when you’re learning something new, it’s scary. Right. You’re anxious, doing something for the first time. And so I think for people that have had really strong mentors or leaders that have had these courageous conversations or they’ve seen them happen because they’ve been had with them, I feel like it’s different in terms of how they’re gonna show up. Ooh, okay.

Prina Shah: Capability gap.

Trina Sunday: So I think that’s one part of it. But I think there’s also a really fine line between accountability and fear, right?

Prina Shah: Oh, totally, absolutely.

Trina Sunday: So, you know, and I think that avoidance is coming from a place of fear. And this is the thing. Cause your post started out as a conversation around trust and then I feel like I hijacked it with the fear based leadership comment. It did, but I feel like they go hand in hand because it’s when we don’t have trust that we have fear.

Prina Shah: Totally.

Trina Sunday: And that’s where I’m finding the language a bit interchangeable in my world. Not necessarily for the people I’m Working with. What are your thoughts?

Prina Shah: Yeah, I, get that completely. And that goes to, you know, the scarcity mindset or the abundance mindset. What kind of mindset do you have as a leader? If it’s a scarcity one, it’s like Chicken Little. You know, the sky is constantly falling. Yes. You may not have the capability or the skills or whatever, or the will even, you know, we could go there. Or is it a case that, you’re just avoiding it? I mean, Trina, that’s the other thing. So definitely a capability thing. But then you work with executives. I work with executives. Like, come on, how many, how many Radical Candle, how many books have there been on freaking having a difficult conversation as well. Have people not been upskilled on this? And if they haven’t been upskilled on this, why are they not learning themselves? I mean, we’ve got information out there, our hands, you know, at, the touch of a phone. We can upskill ourselves. I think there’s this something deeper in terms of that fear aspect that you really tapped into. I don’t know what it is though. I think definitely there’s a psychosocial stuff in that. Managers or leaders feel that, you know, people will complain about them and then things will go wrong and they’ll get into trouble. But then I think I’ll go deeper, Trina, and say that maybe it’s a system of the workplace that’s potentially creating this as well. Because if you think about our performance cycles and our performance system. So just a basic performance and development plan. Right. If you think about back in the day when you were at work and when I was at work, we are pitched against other people already. So I’m already, you know, Trina. Against prenup already. Like, come on. So that creates that, I guess that conflict within myself that. No. but I’m only competing against myself. But in a workplace perspective, no, you’re not. You’re competing against others. All right. I know a lot of workplaces don’t have that, performance related pay, but imagine the ones that do. Oh my gosh. I tell you, that is cutthroat. Those cultures are something different altogether.

Trina Sunday: Yeah. No systems are rigged.

I think we’ve lost touch with what human based workplaces look like

So I think there’s a few things in there that come up for me around, you know, equity in our workplaces as well and how the nine box grid doesn’t serve that purpose. And then we look at wanting people to think outside the box and be innovative, experiment. And then we literally put them in a box. Right. We put them In a quadrant. And so I think, I think we’ve lost touch with what human based workplaces look like. I think we’ve lost touch with humanity. To be honest. If I go deeper, even societally with.

Prina Shah: That talking my language. Let’s do this.

Trina Sunday: I think we’ve got, we’ve lost kind of where heart sits in work, in politics, in, you know, where we are in our communities. We’ve lost sight of what it means to be connected humans. And I think that that’s something that we kind of need to lean into. And it’s certainly something I’m passionate around trying to bring back into our workplaces. Right. Like for me, all of my work is around empowering HR leaders to be courageous change makers. Right.

Prina Shah: Yes.

Trina Sunday: Redefining the future of work. And then I, I do, I, sometimes I baulk at the language around future of work. But when you break it down, it’s like it’s exactly what it is. And if you think about it outside of digitization and AI, where people like to focus, or hybrid work conversations, it literally has the intersection of where we are from a humanity perspective. If we want the future of work to be human.

Prina Shah: Yep.

Trina Sunday: And human first. And to serve our people interests and our profit interests.

Prina Shah: Hello.

Trina Sunday: Then we’ve got to get the sweet spot. Right.

Prina Shah: Can I get on my high horse?

Trina Sunday: Get on. Giddy up.

Prina Shah: Okay. On my high horse. You have been trained in the best of best culture change theories and practises. No doubt. So have I. In my corporate days, a lot of those theories were by men who were consultants who didn’t usually work within the workplace. American often as well. Those workplace theories are still out there and still influencing leaders. Right. Whereas your way of working and my way of working are very different. So, um, in my book, make work Meaningful. How to create a culture that leaves a legacy. I have a whole chapter on leading with head, heart and a backbone. So head, you’ve got to have that clarity. You’ve got to have, you know, the discernment, whatever else. You have to have heart, like as a leader. Come on. You’ve got to give a crap about your people, about what you’re doing, knowing why you’re there as well, knowing why your people are there. And then you have to have a backbone and that’s that fear. You need to have that conversation or you need to do that thing. And I think, yes, people generally lead with a heart. sorry, a head, a heart. We’re getting there. It still sounds like woo woo language, often backbone. This is a conversation about the fear and the mistrust. Right.

Trina Sunday: M. And I think it is the system as you talked about. Like, if I look at the anatomy of fear, I feel like fear hides behind process. So fear, you know, and we often call it. And certainly from a HR space. And I know you look with a different lens, but you’ve worked in HR and od, so you’ve got the balance of both sides and you’ve had that insight, like I do. But we hide behind it and call it thoroughness. Being thorough. But it’s really control and oh my gosh, isn’t it? And I really do see that from a HR lens, which is the space that, you know, I’m working really hard to level up where we are in hr.

Prina Shah: Yeah.

Trina Sunday: But it’s about creating safety. And you talked about psychosocial hazards or psychological safety and they are two quite different things. But like, you know, creating safety has become so sanitised that honesty’s disappeared.

HR have a two week consultation period for major restructures

Prina Shah: Okay, I’m going to ask you to get on your high horse if I may, Trina.

Trina Sunday: Um, okay.

Prina Shah: I’m working with a few organisations who are going through restructures. Uh-huh. And no doubt you are as well. HR have a two week consultation period. I have some issues with it, which I will share in a sec. But what are your thoughts about that consultation period and how it’s being used at the moment?

Trina Sunday: So I think it’s process for process sake.

Prina Shah: Right, thank you.

Trina Sunday: I’m currently working with a client driving massive restructure. Happens to be restructuring, transforming a people, culture, environment, function in a broader corporate service remit. Right. I got given the project timeline that mapped out all the processes and the steps. Yeah. And I got to step three of about 104.

Prina Shah: Like, oh, no.

Trina Sunday: And I said, great. That, you’ve got a restructure or a structural change process. Great. Because you’ve got to map out all the tasks. Right. To know that you 100%, you know, know what you’re doing and when. But I said we don’t have people in the right headspace for this. There’s a different learning that needs to happen in this situation, in this context where we are wanting to move to a structure that is going to be perceived as quite radical. Oh, not radical for Trina Sunday, but radical for our, traditional practises and people that have worked in that way on the ground for a very long period of time. So it depends on the circumstances. So my problem with process is, and this is where I come from, a human first leadership approach. And that Is you gotta look at the people to understand the puzzle. And so these puzzle pieces don’t fit together currently. Cause people don’t understand. If I’m then gonna displace everyone in that team because I say they don’t have the capability, how do I know they don’t, however, have the potential? Yes. So if I don’t test the conversations, test the structure, put some rigour into really healthy human to human interaction, say, here’s the concept, like talk me through the world according to you. And. But there’s a degree of. Now this is easy because it’s a HR transformation and this is the space where, yeah, I’ll get on my whole high horse for days. Right. Because this is my SME space as well. But it’s like, yes, what if in embracing that concept, we’re educating people that there’s a different way, there’s a new way. And from a HR leadership perspective, I believe there’s an opportunity in every single interaction we have as people to show curiosity into what other people’s experiences are and to introduce different ways of doing things that might light other people up.

Prina Shah: There’s a thought.

Trina Sunday: And if you have people that attitudinally are on board, open, curious, and they’re like, I’d be game on for that, but I’ve never had the opportunity. No one’s ever talked about it that way. I’ve never. I would put those people in that job. Seven probably times out of 10, just made that stat up.

Prina Shah: But give them a go.

Trina Sunday: Most of the time. I would put people in that job and give them a crack.

Prina Shah: Yeah.

Trina Sunday: Because if you’ve never tested it, why would you displace an entire team.

Prina Shah: Yeah.

Trina Sunday: If they haven’t been given the opportunity to work differently. No, but you’ve got to set the mandate right.

Prina Shah: Totally.

Trina Sunday: Now, none of that, in my experience happens in two weeks.

Prina Shah: No. Thank you. And one of the things you said is that we’re educating people in the new way. Definitely in that consultation period, ideally. But I want to flip the script as well. I think people are educating us as well, because, you know, they will tell us this will work, this will not work. And I know, yes, there’s always naysayers, but these naysayers often say stuff that other people are thinking. So we really need to consider the full picture before we go into that whole change process. And you know, tick, we’ve done our two week change consultation, so I think we can use that two week change consultation in such a beautiful, more engaging, more humane manner. Like you’re saying as well, and then not have our plan, you know, set in stone. We could flex it, you know, depending on what’s come. But that’s not how the system works, unfortunately. Most of the time, the powers of B will decide and often. You’ve been there, I’ve been there. We are the puppets in the middle as HR who have to do the thing, you know, and that’s a crappy position to be in.

Trina Sunday: But it’s also why I’m so fired up, though, right? Like, it’s why I’m so invested to talking with the HR leaders and teams who feel stuck in the middle.

Prina Shah: Yeah.

Trina Sunday: And it’s that and I the Pulp Fiction in me. But, you know, that song Joke is still left to me, you know.

Prina Shah: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Trina Sunday: It’s. I think, you know, we need to be able to look at what our role is in that. So what I don’t accept.

Prina Shah: Yes.

Trina Sunday: Is HR throwing their hands up in the air. It’s like, oh, I’d love to, but exec won’t let me. Yeah, try harder.

The role of a consultant is to influence, not to learn

So my challenge to that is your role is to influence. Your role is to add value to the business, understand what the business imperative is, figure out how to help with the people mandate to make that happen. But I think to your point around, we learn in that consultation period, we learn volumes. We might learn what people’s capability is. We might absolutely learn more about the work because it’s done by the people closest. You know, those people are closest to the work, so they know the most about the work. But it’s through those conversations that you figure out, is it the design of the job or the organisation, the team? Is it the capability of the people? Is it that there’s just a knowledge gap? Is it that there is.

This is where I’m curious to know your thoughts. In my experience, that consultation shows me most of the time

This is where I’m curious to know your thoughts. In my experience, that consultation shows me most of the time that it’s cultural issues in an organisation that’s the problem, not the structure. Yeah. So then what do we do?

Prina Shah: And here’s a restructure to fix up whatever the issue is. Well, we’re not actually getting to the root cause of the issue ever. Right. Because we’ve just got this new world that we’ve just deemed that is the way forward. Absolutely.

You have to have those tough conversations as a HR practitioner for your own sanity

So, and I think going back to what you said, I loved everything that you said about hr and, you know. No. Well, the executive said, therefore, I don’t have a leeway or whatever. No, I mean, I’ve, been there myself and I know it’s easier said Than done. But you have to have those tough conversations as a HR practitioner for your own freaking sanity as well. And I’ve had to have many a, conversation when I was working in corporate days with many an executive to say, hey, I am the employee advocate for all. I’m not just there for you, you know, and that’s a tough conversation to have and a tough boundary to place as well. But as soon as you start to think of yourself in that manner, life changes. I think your relationships change as well. But then as a HR practitioner, when I started doing that, my job really was to obviously still maintain the good relationships that I had with, you know, the powers that be, but then to re educate them as well as to this is what a good HR practitioner is and this is how I can truly serve you to the best of my potential. And this is how we’ll get far together. And you know, I think then once I did that, Trina, that elevated my credibility, so to speak, even more with my stakeholders. But tough conversation to have, I tell you.

HR teams are stuck in fear based environment that everyone else is

Trina Sunday: And I think the challenge is our, HR teams are stuck in the same fear based environment that everyone else is.

Prina Shah: Yeah, totally.

Trina Sunday: No, like the, at the mercy of an. Recorded this on my last podcast and put this micro podcast episode out in my last one because it was. I have so many HR peers and colleagues that are just kind of feel like they’re imploding like that. They, they’re just, they’re not coping with that tension, that tension point which is a juggle all of the time. Yep. But just can’t win. Right. Like getting slammed from all corners. And and I think so there is a fear across HR in having those conversations. There’s two things that kind of, you know, when we look at the courage to challenge executive, for example, probably three things actually. But like you’ve got to have the capability, like you’ve got to know what you’re doing to have a strong base to challenge from. Right. So you need to be knowledgeable. We know that You’ve got to be good at your craft.

Prina Shah: Yes.

Trina Sunday: But you also need to have confidence. And so fear or a lack of trust strips away confidence. And so you can be the smartest person in the room, but if you’re not confident enough to get on the stage, then you can’t share those smarts with the world. You know, like, if I was scared about what people thought of me, I would not have a podcast. You wouldn’t either.

Prina Shah: Yeah.

Trina Sunday: Like. Cause I share the world according to Trina. Pretty unfiltered as I know you show up as yourself as well. And it’s like there’s gonna be people that will criticise things I say and good on you kind of thing. But that, that confidence and the capability are key. But then the third element I always think about that comes unstuck is clarity.

Prina Shah: Yeah.

Trina Sunday: And so I think what’s difficult is we are often trying to navigate this without having clarity on where the goalposts are to then challenge if they’re moving or where we fit in to that scenario. And so I think I’m seeing fear and trust, which is the irony stopping us from having the conversations that could address some of the fear and mistrust or distrust.

You write about how to create a Culture that Leaves a legacy

Prina Shah: I think you’ve just nailed so much here. Oh my gosh. So last year I published my book Make Work Meaningful, how to create a Culture that Leaves a legacy. People freak out at the word legacy tree. Now it’s like, oh my God, I’m not dead yet. I’m not near the end of my career. It’s like you can leave a freaking legacy every single day. So having, you know, worked with many leaders this year and working on forget your values, forget your corporate mission, all of that.

Trina Sunday, what is the legacy that you wish to leave within the workplace

Trina Sunday, what is the legacy that you wish to leave within the workplace? Asking that question of individuals, I tell you, is something else. It’s really freaking hard work. Some teams seem to just get there and they know it and they’ve just got the answer. Some teams or some individuals doing this as an individual activity is really juicy. So I do this as an individual activity first and then everyone shares, you know, the legacy I want to leave is blah, blah, blah. And you just see the way that people connect with each other after that. And Trina, once you know what your legacy that you want to leave is, I think it gives you that confidence.

Trina Sunday: Mhm. Because I’ve got clarity over mine now. Right. So this is where I used to. A lot of my work through reimagine HR is about. I talk a lot around transforming our workplaces so they’re places where people can thrive instead of survive. And I use words that ah, people are using all over the place and now because everyone else is doing it, I don’t want to use them anymore. I have a really strong belief around if HR can transform our workplaces and we change our work experiences, then happier and healthier people go home to their families. Our families have more impact on communities and together we change the world. I quite boldly would say, Trina Sunday’s here to Change the world, right?

Prina Shah: Yeah, man, totally.

Trina Sunday: But I think what I’ve realised is that’s not my legacy. And this is the first time me saying it out loud. And that is I’ve realised that my legacy is not about changing the workplaces, it’s about changing the HR profession. So the legacy I want to leave is for the HR profession to be in a better place than where I found it.

Prina Shah: Yes.

Trina Sunday: And for HR leaders to be able to step in boldly, proudly, confidently and with value, to be able to change the world. So the outcome of me wanting to change the world is still the same, which is why I do what I do in Cambodia. It’s what I do with gender equity, it’s what I do around economic abuse. It’s what I do with all the pro bono things I do. It’s still about changing the world. Right. But at the end of the day, it’s this unrelenting question around what makes people happy?

Prina Shah: A hundred percent.

Trina Sunday: And that’s what ties it all together for me. Right. So my legacy is about empowering HR to be the courageous change makers. And everything I do moving forward is going to be supporting me moving closer to that legacy.

Prina Shah: Perfect. absolutely. And I’ve worked out what mine is. My legacy is to help leaders to be the best that they can be so that people are happy at work, happy at home, their communities are happy, societies are happy. And it’s that flow on effect, isn’t it?

Trina Sunday: Yeah.

Prina Shah: The ripple, whatever happens at work. Yeah. So we talk the same language. Completely. So, Trina.

Trina Sunday: And it’s why we always bounce and why I always love spending time with you because, you know, we’re so fueled by the people that are in the middle of all of, it.

Prina Shah: Yeah.

Trina Sunday: And while we both work in both angles, you support a lot of the time predominantly leaders. I’m supporting predominantly most of the time, hr. And then together we’re tackling the same thing from different angles. Right. And I love that. But I think a lot of it’s about, I think about where HR is and I think about the bravery that it’s going to take for us to be able to rebuild trust, change our, workplaces to try and address fear. And I’m keen to know, you know, like, if fear breaks trust. Yep. What’s going to rebuild it? Prenup.

Prina Shah: I have some ideas. I’ve got a whole chapter on it. Okay.

Prina Shah writes about how to build trust in the workplace

So you’ve probably done a heap of work on your own business, as have I, from a marketing perspective. You know, I’ve really been learning about how do people trust me as Prina Shah, you know, as my business. In my book, I’ve got a whole chapter on the know like and trust principle. So first off, Trina, you know, we’re randoms working together in a team. It’s like a freaking blind date. We can’t just, you know, move on to trust overnight. You have to wine and dine me first, like get to know me.

Trina Sunday: Right.

Prina Shah: So from a work perspective, we need to get to know each other. First off, how do we get to know each other? There’s so many different ways. There’s formal ways, there’s informal ways, there’s bringing Trina into the workplace, you know, hold a team development session with us. There’s all sorts of stuff you can do. And taking your leadership hat off as well. I think as a leader is really important in that know phase. So everyone’s on the same level. Okay, so we all get to know each other, then we can work out whether we like each other.

Trina Sunday: Right.

Prina Shah: And Trina, you and I don’t have to be best friends, but we have to have some kind of mutual respect if we’re in a team together. So there’s that likability aspect. Um, and then eventually I feel we get to trust. So I did a whole session on this last week with a team and you know, there’s so many people who’ve written about trust, Lencioni and a, million others. But I think it really comes down to we have to get to know each other, we have to like each other most of the time. We’re not going to be best friends all of the time. And then the trust comes. It’s a long, long game. It’s not going to happen overnight. And then, you know, there’s forming, storming, norming, all of the different things that happen within a team. But if we’ve got that foundation, the good foundation, we’re good. We can have that head to head conversation that we need to. Without you feeling awkward, without me feeling, you know, hurt, or whatever it might be. We can just have it out.

Trina Sunday: Yeah. And I think it’s, I think people think that trust is often these really big bold gestures though. And this is where I feel like many of us have got it really wrong. Right. Like, so this is where it’s about. And I talk about in my business, moments that matter. But like really in our workplace, the micro moments, right, they’re the mini itty bitty.

Prina Shah: Yes.

Trina Sunday: Things that we do consistently that kind of show that we have empathy and that there’s Clarity and. But consistency is queen here. Yes, but you know, like consistency is kind of where. Because then we are predictable. We trust people who are predictable. And so if you’ve ever had to deal with someone who is not predictable in how they show up. And we’re seeing a lot of this societally as well with some of our mental health challenges or substance abuse kind of nuances. Wrong word there. So I hope that’s not insensitive to some people. But I think what I’m trying to get at is that it’s hard to reason with unpredictability, um, or insanity. And in some of our workplaces it feels like there’s no rhyme or reason to things and so there is a lack of trust because we just have no idea what the hell is going on.

Prina Shah: Yeah.

Trina Sunday: So clarity helps give us that. The empathy part is understanding where each other are coming. But the micro things.

Prina Shah: Absolutely.

Trina Sunday: It’s the uh. I was in the print room and here’s your stuff. This looked really sensitive. I wanted to bring it straight over. It’s the small gestures and it’s the same thing that would happen in.

Prina Shah: Your home, the micro. But the impact is so, Macro. Right?

Trina Sunday: Yeah.

Prina Shah: I’ve got a whole chapter on moments that matter is what I call them. And these moments that matter are true to you and your culture that you’re building. The moments that matter that I create for my team might be completely different, something else altogether. Right.

Another thing I did, so my latest newsletter talks about false agreement

Another thing I did, so my latest newsletter talks about false agreement. I don’t know if you’re coming across this as well.

Trina Sunday: Tell me about that.

Prina Shah: So false agreement, you know, it looks like we all agree after two people nod, the other voices don’t get heard. Or do we all agree? Do we all agree? You know, manager looking at the clock and just ending the meeting quickly. A chat that’s 99% solution and only 1% descent. I think if you’re not having healthy debates, what the hell is wrong here? What is happening? There’s something too polite, I guess. You know, the stiff upper lipped English kind of situation I can bring as an example here. When people don’t speak up, I think it’s really freaking dangerous. And that’s an issue for organisations and for leaders especially because you don’t know what’s happening. And um, people have just checked out.

Trina Sunday: And I think that comes back to safety as well though, right? Like, yeah, I think that comes back. And this is why when I hijacked your post, it’s like all roads lead to fear. Or from fear not to fear.

Prina Shah: Yes. From.

Trina Sunday: From fear to freedom’s where I’m playing. Right. And so. But it’s. How do we get there? But I think this is the thing around the human first aspect here. Even with those meetings where we want to encourage debate, we know that people aren’t gonna debate in the room. So if we know that in advance.

Prina Shah: Yes.

Trina Sunday: Why aren’t we sharing things and gathering input.

Prina Shah: Exactly.

Trina Sunday: Through contributory tools and forms and using our, you know, online systems and things to gather intel.

Prina Shah: Exactly.

Trina Sunday: Gather insights, understand where we need to really focus our conversation. And it’s like you take all of the agreeable and the. And the other things out of it and you debate the position in the middle. That’s not clear. But we don’t do that. We have the traditional, let’s go in the room, have a chat. We’ve got command and control still where we’ve got the most senior person in the room talking about things. It’s like when I talk to some of my groups around the hippo effect, where it’s the highest paid person’s opinion. And so, you know, I’ll be in rooms and say, all I can see is the hippo effect. And people like, what are you talking about? It’s like, you know, we’re just pulling rank here and then everyone’s filing in behind. That’s not healthy debate. And that’s what trust feels like when it’s working. Right. You have people that can healthily challenge, that tell the truth.

Prina Shah: Yes.

Trina Sunday: Because they feel that they can. And that’s our job.

Prina Shah: Because they feel that they can. That’s the thing. Right. And how can you.

The answer is really tapping into your own legacy that you want to leave

So I think your audience, HR people and, you know, my audience leaders, I think the answer is really tapping into your own legacy that you want to leave. What’s that thing that you want to give not to the workplace, but to the wider world? The bigger piece today, not at the end of your deathbed. What? You know, Trina, we’re going to be working until God knows how long.

Trina Sunday: Right.

Prina Shah: So may as well make it meaningful. That’s my thing. So really tapping into that aspect is so, so important. And then I’m telling you, things really do change.

Trina Sunday: Yeah, yeah. And I think one of the things is, and what I’m cognizant of is there’d be a lot of people listening to us chat and think, what a privilege to sit there and be mapping out your legacy. Like, I’m in the trenches here. Like, who the hell are these woo woo women that are like, Sitting there in business and.

Prina Shah: Yep. Okay.

Trina Sunday: You know, and I think, you know, because I. I get challenged quite a bit around the language of, you know, I used to be game changer. I’m moving more to, you know, like it’s. But it’s true. It’s like I want to move people from game player to game changer.

Prina Shah: Damn right.

Trina Sunday: Yeah. You know, and I’ve got a whole methodology around how to do it.

Prina Shah: Yeah.

Trina Sunday: So, you know, that’s for coaching clients. It works.

Prina Shah: It works. Yes.

Trina Sunday: But do you know what works around it? And this is when I was just listening to you reflect. Then M. We can’t affect or be clear on the legacy or kind of what we bring to the table when we haven’t done the self work.

Prina Shah: No, exactly.

Trina Sunday: And again, this is when people like, nah, man, I’m out.

Prina Shah: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Trina Sunday: What do you mean I have to change myself? No. And I think if we could shift this. I feel like HR are trying to change the world. We’re expecting leaders to change everything, but I think we need to strip it all back, to be honest. And it’s just about individuals being able to figure out, to your point, who they are. And maybe legacy is a big word for them, you know, but it’s. What do you want to be better tomorrow than it is today?

Prina Shah: Exactly.

Trina Sunday: And what does that look like?

Prina Shah: 100%. And I would add to that as well. So you know those people who are feeling super disempowered. I’ve been there, you know, myself as well. I would ask those people who are listening, thinking, yeah, bullshit, ladies, you know, whatever. I want you to consider if you are really disagreeing with this. Good, thank you. Let us know. Get in touch with us. We want to hear, you know, from yourselves as well.

Trina: I’m seeing trauma in our workforces, among employees

But I want to ask you, are you the passenger in your career or are you the driver? Usually, Trina, those people who are really pissed off at work, you’re like, everything’s not good, blah, blah, blah. They point the finger to someone else. It’s time to look in the mirror as well and to find out whether you are the passenger or the driver of your career. Because you do have agency. And that’s what working on your legacy reminds you of, that you freaking have agency to do whatever you want to.

Trina Sunday: And I think that’s part of the self work, right? It’s figuring out how to reclaim your agency if you feel like you’ve lost it big time. And I think what I’m finding is that because of the lack of human kind of Empathy that I’m seeing at every level across the globe at the minute. And I find it really challenging. Right. So I’m built at a bit of a heightened scale around being an empath, around the things that I will cry when the news comes on and I will cry at some of the things I’m seeing that’s happening where already I’m being censored around some things with some certain countries, with some certain leaders. So we’ll save that for another day. Not because I’m not bold or courageous, but there’s some things that could be compromised.

Prina Shah: Does not deserve any airtime here today.

Trina Sunday: Yep, Yep. We don’t need to name it. And, could compromise some things that would help me change the world. So. Yep. You know, gotta work on a few things. But I don’t know how we are turning away from some of those things in our workplaces as well. Like we have fundamentally things that are causing people harm.

Prina Shah: Yeah.

Trina Sunday: And I think what is happening with, say, the legacy or the self work and the resistance around that, I’m seeing layers of trauma. Right. like, so I’m seeing trauma in our workforces, among our employees, that’s not acknowledged, identified. We’re not giving any space for support to resolve. There’s post traumatic stress, essentially in some spaces. And then you’ve got this thing where my workplace kind of caused this. And so. And then I’m being left to feel like a criminal because now I’m navigating a worker’s comp system. There’s all of this complexity.

Prina Shah: It is hard.

Trina Sunday: And I think that’s what’s overwhelming for hr, because we see all of it, we see the whole organisation, a leader sees all of it more intimately with a team.

Prina Shah: Yes.

Trina Sunday: And so I think it’s. It’s a challenge. It’s. How do you help people to lead with heart when their hearts are broken?

Prina Shah: Indeed. Indeed. I know, when organisations. I, guess you’ve got to be going back to the PC stuff we were saying earlier, like, how. How involved do you want to get? How involved can you get as well? There’s a new expectation of the workplace, I feel nowadays as well. Our psychological contract to the workplace has really shifted over, you know, the last five years and we do expect more of work in understanding me as a human. And I’m really glad that you talk about society. So I, you know, I study sociology and social psychology, so I always bring society into anything that I. Because whoever you are within the workplace, you’re someone outdoors as well. There. Thank you. Very much. And one thing, I completely agree with you, Trina. I’m coming across people who are dealing with. It’s a term that I’ve just recently learned about the poly crisis, um, multiple crises, you know, that we’re seeing, that we’re dealing with, that we’re watching on the news. I stopped watching the news probably around 15, 16 years ago. I just read stuff now because it just got too much. But when your people are dealing with polycrisis out there, you know, in the world and they’re acting shitty within the workplace, hello, I wonder why that is. So, yes, there has to be some kind of boundary between work and life. But then no as well. I feel like we need some kind of new work life integration, that humanity, you know, the way that you’re talking about a new way of working as well, is what we really need.

Trina Sunday: And I think most executives would flip the table on the even remote thought that we need to bring more of our people to work.

Prina Shah: I know, right.

Trina Sunday: And so, you know, we’ve tried to put these boundaries. And I get it right. Because I get it in terms of having boundaries around where our responsibilities stop and start.

Prina Shah: Correct.

Trina Sunday: But it is fluid. We bring our home to work, we take our work home. And either way, it’s going to ruin one part of our life if we can’t get some kind of balance or coping mechanisms in place for when the balance is not tipped in the favour that we need.

Prina Shah: Like, thank you.

Trina Sunday: And I could always go through very, very, very intense emotionally and physically in terms of work stuff. I could do it unrelentingly for a long period of time when I knew that I had a month off to go abroad and refuel. Like the carrot kind of thing. Right. I feel like people aren’t getting off the hamster wheel.

Prina Shah: Yeah.

Trina Sunday: And we’re not refuelling, we’re not re. Energising, we’re not refilling the cup, whatever your language is.

Who’s sucking your energy, Emotional vampires in your workplace

And I got challenged around being woo woo when I used the term fill your cup last week.

Prina Shah: Okay.

Trina Sunday: Now that’s one person. Right. So let’s not exaggerate. However, I found that really interesting that just a concept around energy is finite energy and time. So energy in and out. Who’s sucking your energy, Emotional vampires in your workplace, who’s refuelling your energy both in people and processes. Right?

Prina Shah: Yeah.

Trina Sunday: And talking about that and having people go, it’s just so woo woo. Like this fill your cup stuff like, can we just get it? And it’s like there’s some Self work right there.

Prina Shah: Big time. Yep.

Trina Sunday: We can’t, you and I, consultants, change agents, supporters, enablers, empowerers. We can’t fix that person.

Prina Shah: No, not at all.

Trina Sunday: That’s therapy. That’s what a psychologist and self reflection work needs to happen. And I don’t even say that flippantly and critically.

Prina Shah: It’s true.

Trina Sunday: That is where we have some really fundamental things that are flowing into the workplace. And training programmes aren’t going to fix that.

Prina Shah: That ain’t gonna cut it. We’re all so different, Trina. We all have such different needs.

Trina: We need to call out negative energy in meetings

Absolutely. And I’m so glad that you mentioned energy as well. I’ve been called out on using the word energy as being woo woo. But let’s. Okay, let me give you an example. You walk into a room, someone’s got their arm, um, crossed. The rest of the room is really quiet. Can you sense the energy in the room? M. Yes, you freaking can. That’s what energy is. Thank you very much. So it is not woo woo. Because then the other thing that happens as well is emotional contagion. Uh-huh. In a negative sense. Which is really crap. Yeah. We take on the negative of everyone else. So, yeah, we really do have to work on ourselves. And four. Yeah, there’s a lot of work.

Trina Sunday: We need to be able to call it out though, right?

Prina Shah: Yes.

Trina Sunday: So we need to be able to call it out. So I was with a client and delivering a workshop with a leadership team last Thursday.

Prina Shah: Okay.

Trina Sunday: And the CEO, also managing director, family, run business. It’s not a space I play in very often, but they really wanted help, with things. And they’re good people, right?

Prina Shah: Yeah.

Trina Sunday: So I gravitate to where the good people are. And walking into that room, when they walked into the room, the whole leadership group, you felt the energy and the oxygen disappear from the room in an instant. Ouch. The body language from the managing director was awful. Now, I’d seen a couple of emails that morning. I knew he was turning up angry with someone else that was on the leadership team. But it’s one of these things where me as an external consultant, there’s a different way of being able to manage that situation, Right?

Prina Shah: Correct.

Trina Sunday: So I flipped the script in the room, had people work on some reflection stuff. And then it was like, hey, mate, can we just go have a chat? I just want to talk about the next thing we’re going to do.

Prina Shah: Good.

Trina Sunday: And went outside and was like, what the hell, man? Like, what, What? What is going on?

Prina Shah: You called it.

Trina Sunday: Because there is no point Us being here, if you can’t, like, I know that you’re in a really tough spot. I know that your back’s against the wall. If you can’t be in the space that we need you to be in for this, to kind of be able to look, be future focused.

Prina Shah: Mhm.

Trina Sunday: There’s no point us being here wasting money, wasting time, wasting energy, respect to you. Because the energy in the room and the vibe in the room, it’s not cool. It’s not okay. But I’m worried about you. So what do you need? Can we do it or should we call it? Because I’ll help you call it.

Prina Shah: Yeah.

Trina Sunday: He’s like, right, okay. But I’m not being angry. I’m holding my stuff together. I’m like talking doesn’t. It’s body language. I said the words come out of your mouth are not even 30% of what people’s communication is from you. So you don’t need to say a word.

Prina Shah: No, we can read it, you know.

Trina Sunday: And if you can’t contribute to the conversation because you’re trying to hold your anger for three hours, there’s no point. Yep. So how can I help you? What do we do?

Prina Shah: I love that.

Trina Sunday: And he said, no, we, we need to do this. And in my mind I’m like, yeah, we definitely need to have this session because we’ve got stuff that needs to happen. But at the same time, if it’s not going to get the outcome and have the impact, it’s not the right time.

Prina Shah: No.

Trina Sunday: And this is a human being in the middle. But it’s not easy for a peer to do that though, right? Or a subordinate.

Prina Shah: Or is it? Hey, Trina, you don’t seem like yourself today. Just a statement like that. Come on. You know that inconsistency thing that you talked to earlier and you know when you were having that conversation, when you were explaining the way you spoke with your client as well. HR people can completely have this kind of conversation. If you’ve got that relationship, if you’ve got that trust, if you do not have the fear aspect in your relationship, that’s what a good HR practitioner should be doing as well.

We’re terrible societally at asking for help, Trina says

Trina Sunday: Yeah, I feel like this is where you know how we talked about the capability and the confidence and the clarity type stuff, all the C words, the good ones. It’s about being able to show up in that moment though, serving others.

Prina Shah: Yeah.

Trina Sunday: And this is the bit that I feel like we’ve lost in the fear based environment that we find ourselves is that when you’re scared you’re less likely to show up in service of others.

Prina Shah: No, exactly.

Trina Sunday: Because you’re self protecting.

Prina Shah: Exactly.

Trina Sunday: So if you’re self protecting, you’re not giving. Right. And this is, it’s very core, like why fear and trust being broken means that we can’t then lean in to help other people because we need people to be helping us in those moments.

Prina Shah: And you know what? Sometimes we need to call it as well and say it. And that’s okay. Leaders, it’s okay. HR people to say, hey, I’m not doing well, I need help from you.

Trina Sunday: But we’re terrible societally at asking for help. Right?

Prina Shah: Full stop. Full stop. Absolutely. So. But we’ve seen also when people do ask for help, whether it be in the workplace or personally, how things really do change. That’s the other thing I know, you know, the Western world is a very individualist kind of society and you’ve worked in Eastern cultures as well, which are very community focused, that kind of thing. So it can be done. I come from, you know, an Indian culture which is very community focused. How do we hold our hand up more to say, hey, I’m not well, I need help? Is a question I would ask the audience who are listening. How can you do that for yourself? How can you, Trina? I’d ask the audience as well. How can you respectfully call out the shitty behaviour yourselves as well? Whether you are, you know, the cleaner, whether you’re a, graduate, whether you’re a junior, whatever, or whether you’re the CEO. Um, either way, how can you have that tough conversation in your own beautiful manner? We’re all very different. If you do it in your own style, then of course that’s going to land so much better than Trina’s way or Prina’s way.

HR has the power and the responsibility to redefine leadership

Those are the big questions I want to ask people. Like, what is holding you back from a fear perspective, really as well people, I want to ask you, what is that fear? Get to the root cause of it.

Trina Sunday: M. And I think, I think even though we’ve talked about the fact that we feel like we’re missing humanity in our workplaces, it’s also what’s going to save it, right?

Prina Shah: Oh, totally. I’ve seen the flip side.

Trina Sunday: Yeah. I know in my heart of hearts and in the people I work with, the spaces that I occupy, that there are incredible people that care. And so HR has the power and the responsibility to redefine leadership. And I think courage for HR is, is staying human. Yeah. In spaces that ask us to be Neutral, Yes. So for us to stay human, that’s the role modelling that’s going to help others that might be listening to be like, well, how do I stay true to myself in these moments? Because that’s not me.

Trina: HR people don’t give themselves enough credit often

Prina Shah: Okay, can I jump onto that beautiful statement, stay human in spaces that ask us to be neutral? HR people. I think HR people don’t give themselves enough credit often. And they don’t develop themselves often as well because they’re in their frigging echo chamber and they’re busy, they’re stressed out, they’re overwhelmed. I’ve been there and I’ve done that myself. But once you start developing yourself in the new world of work and, you know, new theories, new practises, hello, you’re not only developing yourself, but you. Is that pass it on mentality? You’re going to give back to your organisation, to your people, to the organisational culture. And what a beautiful ripple effect. Are you leaving then, after you’ve learned new things? So, Trina, question for you. I don’t know if you come across. I mean, you work with brilliant HR teams who obviously want to learn, but I know there’s many HR teams whose doors are completely closed because they know the best. You know, they’re the ones who especially are, working in the fear, fear aspect. And I think leaders as well, whose cups are full, you know. Yeah, let’s take your language. If your cup is full, ain’t nothing else gonna fill it if you think it’s so full. You know, we can really learn from others and we can learn from our own freaking mistakes as well, but we just have to admit them.

Trina Sunday: Yeah, I agree. And I think, I think the key thing as well that I would leave kind of HRN leaders think about is that, you know, the future of work is not defined by technology. Right. It’s gonna be defined by how much heart we bring to leadership. And it’s the heart work that I’m doing through my coaching and through the speaking that I’m doing that’s really starting to shift this. Like it’s the model, you know, that is. And you know, there’s a similar theme, I guess, because our work, we, you know, both smart people that kind of know how some of these things fit together. But you know, it is about the head, the heart and for me the hands, like around, you know, like how you fit, how you fit that together in a way that you can then execute. So it takes the woo woo. Because I’m pragmatic, right? So I’m like, yeah, yeah, I’m going to go woo woo on you, but then I’m going to be.

Prina Shah: I’ll, show you how.

Trina Sunday: I’ll show you how. Because we need the intuitiveness, we need the confidence. But I really think that we know and, you know, courage doesn’t come from a workshop. Right. It comes from choosing trust and over fear, basically over and over again. And I would really encourage, you know, listeners to your point, think about their legacy, to think about how we’re going to reduce fear and how we take more heart action. What are you going to do this week? Simple, simple, beautiful. Let’s do it.

Prina Shah: Let’s do it. Let’s do it. Yes.

Trina Sunday: Thank you, Prina.

Prina Shah: Thank you, Trina.

Reimagine HR is working on a new Heart Work model for HR leaders

Trina Sunday: As we wrap up. Remember this hard work builds systems, but heart work builds legacies. And my new Heart work model is helping HR leaders re-energise, realign and reimagine what’s possible. And it’s only just the beginning. So if you’re ready to be a part of the next chapter of Human first hr, connect with me at Reimagine HR for coaching or bring me in to work with your team. Because the world doesn’t need more HR departments, it needs more heart LED change makers. Are you in? Thanks for tuning in and leaning in to this week’s episode. As we look to reimagine how we show up for our people, organisations and community, reach out to us via our website at www.reimaginehr.com.au with your HR horror stories or suggestions of people you’d love to hear from or topics you want to explore. It’s all about people, purpose and impact and we are here for all of it. 

Until next time, take care, team.