Organisational Trauma with Yemi Penn

Episode 5: Organisational Trauma with Yemi Penn

Yemi Penn is researching the alchemy of transmuting pain to power

Trina Sunday: Welcome. I’m really excited to be joined by Yemi Penn today. Yemi’s a fearless businesswoman and thought later on creating her own memo, meaning she gets to write the script of her life, and she encourages others to do the same. She’s an engineer by profession and an entrepreneur by passion, having run three successful businesses in the past. But she’s now researching the alchemy of transmuting pain to power. And she’s got a strong desire to learn new ways of being while challenging the status quo. And I love that. Yemi invites the collective to ignite their rebellious curiosity. Best term ever in all aspects of their life. And she shares tools to do just that. But more recently, I’m excited to explore this further. Yemi’s added documentary producer to her repertoire because she’s not busy enough in everything that she does for us in the community, and she’s shifting her core life’s purpose to raising the vibration of acknowledging and healing our individual and therefore collective trauma. And that’s something that individuals, communities and organisations alike have experienced over the last couple of years. And I’m really excited to jump into what this looks like for organisations. So welcome, Yemi. Oh, my gosh.

Yemi Penn: I’ve never had anyone read my bio in such an embodied way. And that’s why I’m so excited to do this, because I know you are the work we are trying to do. So it is an absolute pleasure to have this conversation.

Trina Sunday: Thank you.

For people that don’t really understand or haven’t heard about organisational trauma.

For people that don’t really understand or haven’t heard about organisational trauma, can you talk us through what that means for you and what it looks like and the things that you’re considering in the research, but also what you’ve observed out there.

Yemi Penn: Yeah, look, if I’m going to be radically honest, which is a big part of the work I do, I only came across those two terms from your work, but I could see the synergies and what we did. But let’s just break it down to what they are, organisation and trauma, and put those two together. And it’s the notion that for so long we have assumed trauma is just to the individual. This is my whole view on decolonisation, but let me park that, because I’m sure we will get there. But the fact that for very long, and understandably so, we’ve just assumed trauma just happens to the individual and we haven’t even gone to the collective. Even though a lot of our traumas in the world at large are collective, organisational trauma is the fact that an entity can experience a distressing or disturbing event, because there are people in that organisation. Now if I was to just go within the industry that my profession has been in, whether it’s engineering or projects, there would have been distressing events. There are usually so many individual incidents that actually leave a mark on all the individuals in the organisation. So I say that as holistically as I can, but there could be very particular instances. But I think the point is to assume trauma is only something that happens in the home or communities is actually a really big service to how we see the world as a whole. Because considering organisations supposedly contribute to the health of a country’s GDP, commercial, and a country’s ability to protect itself, we’ve ignored it for too long. So, yeah, let’s merge those words together.

Trina Sunday: Yeah, I think it’s really interesting because the work that I do and obviously reimagine HR, we’re working with business and HR leaders to really elevate what we can create in organisations, to create safe, healthy organisations where people can do their best work.

An organisational trauma is anything that leaves a scar in an organisation

Right. And I think about the word trauma and let’s be honest, because both of us like to keep it real, like it triggers different things for people. And so people’s life experience can attach a word trauma to it that’s different to colleagues that are existing in an organisation. And then you have trauma that can happen in an organisation that is felt differently by the people in there because of their lived experience. And I’m curious to know because when I think about it, organisational trauma is kind of. It’s anything that leaves a scar as well. Like there’s lots of incidents that5666 happen around restructuring or there’s serious incidents and injury or potentially death in a workplace, which is just horrific for people to rally around. Yeah, but it can be smaller than that as well. Right. So how do you think about trauma and these kinds of things? Because then we haven’t even got to the stuff that’s happening in the world. Yeah, that might come into organisations. How do you view it?

Yemi Penn: Yeah, I mean, we’ll come to it, but the link between the micro, what happens at our community organisation level is very much related to the macro, what’s happening in the world. So. Absolutely. Let’s start with organisations. I mean, you gave some perfect examples. An organisation that constantly restructures at least. I’m just going to take a guess. I don’t know if anyone’s done some research, at least 50% of the organisation is going to be triggered. There’s going to be a fear that will be attached to so many other things than the actual restructuring. Am I going to lose my job? There’s uncertainty? Am I too old? Is my skill coming out? Like, it’s going to bring up so much stuff? So that appears to be the obvious one. But then you’ve got other ones, like constantly being passed over for a promotion because you followed most people thinking they’re following the memoir, that if I do this, if I do x, y, z, then surely, I’m going to get a, b, c, d. Now it’s not. I want to make it clear that I’m not coming in with this premise that, well, it’s the organization’s fault, because we also have a tendency to constantly find someone to blame, but we have to acknowledge that it’s bringing stuff up in people. Same with pay rises. And I know, and I literally just came back from listening to Bessel van DER Kolk, who talks about the body, keeps the score and talks about trauma. And you could see him roll his eyes at the fact that we sometimes overuse trauma, but I don’t know, I think we’re just getting comfortable with it. This can bring up a lot of stuff for people. Other things are the fact that sexual violations, misconduct happen a lot in the workplace. And sometimes we think that is the only thing that is traumatic. That’s very traumatic, but not the only. I have forgotten the question you asked me, but it felt like I needed to continue in the thread of what you said. So ask again.

Trina Sunday: Roll with it. Just roll with it. I think it was just exploring what some of those incidents look like. And I do a lot of work in organisational culture. And so when I think about what you’re talking about there with trauma, I think about people really coming from a place of fear and insecurity, which then means that people bunker down, right, the self-protection people are worried, as you say, around their jobs or there’s security in their roles, employment the financial pressures and economic pressures that people experience are exacerbating that. So there’s lots of things that are triggering, I don’t use the word anxiety in a clinical sense but causing worry in our organisations on a scale that I probably haven’t seen for quite a while over the last 20 years of doing this work.

Do you see cultural trauma translating over into organisations

And I know that in your documentary as well, there’s a focus on cultural trauma. Do you see a crossover, of the work you’ve done in the cultural space into organisations? I’m fascinated to see, especially because you’ve got a global lens and Australia’s a unique beast in terms of some of this and you’ve got different perspectives and I’d love to know kind of how you see cultural trauma translating over into organisations, if at all.

Yemi Penn: Yeah. Oh, no, I do. And it’s probably still very fresh because obviously I’m in my final year of my PhD and if I was to highlight a part of the research around cultural trauma that I found the most powerful has come from Resmaa Manakam, who says trauma decontextualized in a person can be seen as personality.

Trina Sunday: Okay, can you say that again, please?

Yemi Penn: Trauma decontextualized in a person can be seen as personality. Powerful trauma decontextualized in a group, can be perceived as culture. So I’m gonna say that again. Trauma decontextualized inner people in a community, in an organisation, can be perceived as culture. Now, I’ve only just added organisation to that because I do think this is the part of exploration. Sometimes we do have a tendency to get a group of people, whether it’s people from Asia, from Africa, from Australia, indigenous. Most of us tend to be very general in typecasting that group, if we’re all going to be radically honest. And sometimes, as from my research, I’m finding out that typically culture is actually the way to respond to that trauma, that sometimes the very culture has come about. Because either for some people it was the only way to be safe, or for some people it could be, well, actually, this is the only way we can work through our trauma. That’s the bit that I’m still investigating. So I guess I say that, and whoever listens to this will be like fresh off the. Off the press or the PhD book. But then the question is, is a culture already forming in an organisation? That’s the other thing. If you think of the turnover that you either have within HR or whoever now organises people and culture, who are the people that have informed the culture before they came on? Like, we really must, we assume that we only look forward. Sometimes you have to look back to understand, well, what’s been done, who informed the culture, what incidents have happened, that have informed it, and then let’s be at the eight ball. Let’s go ahead and say, well, what’s the culture we want to create? I mean, that’s where we are in the world now. Yeah, I think we need to redefine humanity, but let’s bring it back in here in an organisation. Let’s just do a little bit of a, stop that. Let’s go back to history. Let’s go back to the fact that history does leave clues. What’s the culture we’ve had in the past? What has informed it? Has it worked for us? More than likely it would say, no, it no longer works. But what’s the culture we want to.

Trina Sunday: Create, be so interesting to map and bring people into the room and look back and map the timeline of traumatic events that have happened, that have informed the culture. Because we all know that people talk about them, right? Like, you can come in as a new person to an organisation, you’re fresh, you’ve got fresh eyes. You’ve not lived in that culture before. I was going to say trauma because I’m just predicting that’s where it was going to go for that new person. But then within a short period of time, the stories are being told. Storytelling is so powerful. Truth telling.

Yemi Penn: Yeah.

Trina Sunday: in terms of what’s happened before. And suddenly it starts to shape the way that person views an organisation. And so I think it’s true what you say. When you look back, you can kind of see where it’s come from. And a lot of the time it’s leadership. Yeah. Because we know that leadership informs culture. Culture in turn, though, informs leadership and there’s a cycle there and ultimately it drives performance. That’s what. That’s what it does.

What elephants are you seeing in organisations that potentially aren’t being called out

But, I mean, I’ve also heard you say that to solve the problems in the room, you first have to name them, and you talk really powerfully around the elephants in the room. What elephants are you seeing in organisations that potentially aren’t being called out?

Yemi Penn: Well, we keep on promoting the problem. This is a culture I found in some of the organisations in Australia. So one of the biggest elephants is when someone does something wrong. Maybe there’s bullying. Maybe there’s a female leader who’s bullying. Maybe there’s a male leader who is misconducting himself sexually and doing certain things. And what happens is, because they are leaders most of the time, like nine out of ten times, that person automatically and very quickly gets moved to a different department or sector and sometimes country.

Trina Sunday: Mhm.

Yemi Penn: And what’s happening is we’re all talking about it with each other, but no one’s really holding anyone to account. Now, I have to, I guess, put the small print in this, in that I don’t necessarily always believe that perpetrators of some trauma or distressing events in organisations need to automatically be thrown out. Yes. Safety for the victim, I get that. But there has to be a different approach. There really has to be a different approach to how we deal with perpetrators because the other elephant in the room is. Everybody assumes they do not have the capacity to be a perpetrator. We really do. And it doesn’t have to be that what you do is a heinous crime, but there is a real capacity for all of us to inflict some level of discomfort on somebody else, no matter how small or big it is.

Trina: Every leader should go through an ayahuasca ceremony

So I’m coming to you with the elephants in the room that nobody is even thinking or wanting to talk about, because the other thing that you mentioned, and I agree to a certain extent, is the role of the leader. No one’s coming to save us, Trina.  like, no one is. No. So sorry. I know. Shock, horror.

Trina Sunday: Damn it.

Yemi Penn: Oh, my gosh. We laugh when people are really going to panic when they hear that. not even our leaders. Our leaders are going to try, but we must remember that our leaders, too, have something that is constantly re triggering them. I’ve heard many people say this. Definitely. Gabor Mate has said in his work on wisdom of trauma that every leader should go through an ayahuasca ceremony, which is plant medicine. Maybe that’s a bit extreme, but every leader most definitely should go through a process of cleaning their trauma so that they can hold space for themselves as a minimum. But ideally, everybody would go through it so that they can meet their leaders at a place where both of them are not completely weighing each other down.

Trina Sunday: And I think a big part of that is remembering. Leaders are humans.

Yemi Penn: Yeah.

Trina Sunday: Fallible, flawed with their own lived experience. And trauma, as you say, in terms of how they’ve got to where they are.

You talk about cleaning our trauma. What does that look like?

You talk about cleaning our trauma. What does that look like? That’s a big question.

Yemi Penn: Yeah, it is.

Trina Sunday: Tell us more about what cleaning our trauma means and how we might do it.

Yemi Penn: Yeah, I think, firstly, it means that trauma exists. I mean, the stats before 2020 in Australia was 67% of adults have experienced at least one distressing event. That was pre 2020. And remember, we’re just doing it for a demographic that we have access to, not necessarily a demographic that we don’t. So that’s something I always want to do when I’m applying a decolonising lens. So let’s just say, for the sake of it, there was 70, 75%. That’s more than one in two. So if you’re in any room, there’s always going to be at least 50, but in this instance, 70% have experienced it. So cleaning trauma m firstly, means that something has happened to you that distressed you at that time.

Trina Sunday: Mhm.

Yemi Penn: And even though you don’t think it’s running your life, whenever it’s triggered or activated, it feels like you’re back in that scenario. To clean it means that you haven’t done the work yet because you just put it to the side or because that particular moment in time has gone. you think about all the things we’ve happened in the past when we have cultural wars, it’s because, oh, that happened in the past. Why do you keep on bringing it up? Well, actually, it never quite got dealt with in a way that would allow us to operate fully. And so there’s a risk without shame that the trauma is still dirty. There’s a risk that what you experienced and the residue it’s left in you and your body and your mind might be festering in a way that how you are showing up is not fully you. That’s how you are. What you do when you are triggered is not really you. To clean your traumas, to just acknowledge, oh, I don’t think that it’s like your car. You got your beautiful car, you want to clean it. If it’s dirty, it doesn’t mean it’s bad or whatever. There’s just something in it. And might be able to work on the words, but for now, I actually think if we don’t clean our trauma in some capacity, we are going to blow that trauma through others, and that is going to be the dirty pain that one has. And once again, without a shadow of a doubt, influenced by Resmaa Manakam, one way you can clean your trauma is to start off by acknowledging it and just tapping into the different modalities that are there. Once again noting that not everyone has the financial access to maybe do therapy that can cost anywhere from $100 to $500 an hour. But we can do simple things like acknowledging it, but dancing, music, movement, really powerful modalities that a lot of cultures in Asia and Africa have been some of the longest standing cultures that have used it to heal trauma. For me, cleaning trauma is, I guess, another way of saying healing it.

Trina Sunday: And I think that there’s a lot in that. Right. And I’m interested to know what your observations are. So I talk about different things, and I talk about spirituality sometimes. And people say, Trey, you bring the woo woo into business. And it’s kind of like that. But we have to, right? We have to. I’m not saying that people have to do what I’m sharing, but it’s like I feel like we need to explore different ways of expression, we need to explore different ways of looking at situations and perspective. And there’s lots of different tools out there and they might not all be for everybody, but, but I do find in a  corporate context that there is more discomfort in exploring more spiritual or different modalities. So if I go and run a workshop with an exec team and ask everybody to get up and have a dance and there’s different things I’ve tried over the time, I can tell you very clearly what the response to that is. Like, the level of discomfort is phenomenal. if I was going into a different group with a different cultural background or even my husband who wasn’t from  nigerian background dancing’s at the core. If we’re not dancing in the middle of, where we are, then we’re not bringing it back and not getting centred in it. So it’s different for different groups. And I think that’s the power of the diversity we have in organisations though, and we’re not tapping into it. So we’ve got this really anglo lens on a lot of how our corporate systems and structures and ways of working have been constructed. And that works for some people. We know it’s not working for everybody. The Wajia data tells us that other data that’s gathered in terms of even trauma in organisations tells us that. So we have to try new things, otherwise nothing’s going to shift, right?

Yemi Penn: We do. And I know that you might be getting some flack of bringing the spiritual. I have empathy for those because sometimes you could go into another setting. Like I went to a retreat, and it was, and I knew there was going to be some woo woo element, but the minute they started playing music and dance, my body froze. And I love dancing, but I was not prepared to dance in front of other people with all the lights on and that’s in a space where it’s been created. So the corporate world has probably got a little way to go. But here in Australia we have ample opportunity if we were to really embody, when a First Nations person comes to do a welcome to the country, sometimes there’s a bit of dancing involved. How awesome would it be to use that as an opportunity to just get the rest of the people to move? Because when we move our body we get rid of any excess energy and then maybe we can come into the meetings like wholesome, using our clean version of whatever we’ve worked through to actually contribute to progress.

Trina Sunday: It’s really interesting where we are with. I reflect very strongly and often on where we are in our reconciliation journey in Australia. And I know I’m working with different organisations where the voice, for example, to call out big elephants in the room conversations that are not still happening. And I feel like they should be.

Yemi Penn: Yeah.

Trina Sunday: and so there’s a real lack of healing or deliberate action that’s being taken at an organisational level, community level. And I know people have different views on where it sits, but for me, passion at the core of that is reconciliation.

Yemi Penn: Yeah.

Trina Sunday: And do you see that having been a trauma, the voice and that process and the result? And do you see that creating trauma in organisations with that racial lens?

Yemi Penn: Oh, yeah, absolutely. But we’ve done a fine job, and I don’t know, I’m hoping within the next couple of weeks someone, a leader of some sort, will come and just say, okay, so we had the referendum and here’s the conversation about what we think needs to happen next, or this is what’s happened when we’ve gone and spoken to elders. That’s the macro. The micro would be the same within organisations if an organisation was very vocal about the stance, they were going to take on the voice, whether it was a yes. My question is how they have looped that back to when we had the referendum and came back to no, especially if they have First nations and Torres Strait islanders within their organisation. It’d be really interesting to see. Or have we just gone into the coffee room to have conversations? If we were having this debate at a country level, why all of a sudden now, especially when we didn’t get the outcome that we hoped the majority would vote yes, then why have we just gone quiet? It’s literally a replica of how we are almost dealing with everything traumatic. I’m not convinced Australia is mature enough to have the dialogue and I think it’s a big reason why we did get the no. And I have so many thoughts about it. And I literally just recorded that on my podcast earlier today. So I was more than happy to respond.

Trina Sunday: I think we’ll put some links to that in the show notes once you’re podcast for that episode.

To have a happy, healthy workforce you need to have a healthy organisation

Stretti. Because I think it’s something that, people, and no matter which side of the vote people are on, you’ve got. And for me, at the core of all of this is always people, right? And no matter what the trauma is, you have people that are hurting. So then the work across all different scenarios. And so for me at an organisational level, if you want to have a productive, agile, collaborative, innovative organisation, all of those things that are going to give you the profit, the revenue, the customer successes that you want, you need a happy, healthy workforce.

Yemi Penn: Yeah.

Trina Sunday: To have a happy, healthy workforce you need to have a healthy organisation. And healthy organisations are organisations that have healed from injury. Mhm.  if we take the health analogy further, and that’s where, cleaning the trauma kind of comes in. Right. But it’s just a different language set and so obviously in an organisational setting it translates into, acknowledging the problems and. But that language then can make it very process centric.

Yemi Penn: Yeah.

Trina Sunday: And at the core of it, we lose heart then in terms of sometimes the why of what we need to change and why we need to change it.

Yemi Penn: Yeah, let’s make it human centric.

Trina Sunday: How do we do that, do you think?

Yemi Penn:  It’s the reason why I’m doing the work I do. I don’t understand. Can you imagine someone suffering from stage four cancer and then we ask them to go look after a group of people and it’s important they feel most of their needs?

Trina Sunday: Mhm.

Yemi Penn: I don’t say that lightly. And, this is where I ask for grace in case there’s anything I’ve said that has upset people. But we’re asking sick people to look after sick people. We really are. I mean, you’ve got the whole psychosocial hazard policy and code of conduct that was introduced a couple of years ago because we started to see burnout within organisations happening a lot more. We don’t have it said all the time, but there’s been a lot of suicides and probably down to being burnt out. So one way we can make it human centric is making sure that the leaders and those in roles who are carrying the HR title and people culture really have done the work and it doesn’t need to be clean and traumatic. And I’ll talk about a programme I’m working on to respond to this, but really work on liberating themselves from whatever traumas they have experienced in and outside of the workplace so that they can come and serve as balanced as they possibly can. Noting that this is continuous work, continuous work, it should be part of onboarding for every person that comes in.

Let’s look at our paradigm of the workforce

And I do think another way we make this human centric is let’s look at our paradigm of the workforce. Are there any new titles we need to now bring into organisations? Are there any changes of titles and roles we need to do? And we’re beginning to realise that we do. You take it when we were in a different industry and revolution where people were working 14-hour days. The reason why we work nine to five now was to take away the 14-hour days. But now we found that still m not working because we’re doing that five days a week and that weekend goes by really quickly.

Trina Sunday: So fast. Yeah. Whoosh. And it’s gone.  there’s lots in terms of titles that come to mind?

Do titles need to change to help organisations deal with organisational trauma

I’m just curious, do titles come to mind that you think need to change? I’m curious to see if something was in your mind that’s shifting.

Yemi Penn: There was a title I actually pitched to a few organisations and it wasn’t a psychologist. I can’t remember what it was, but it was someone who comes in and drops in. I can’t remember the exact title but. And,  maybe will come to me as I speak it out, which is someone who is slightly removed from the day to day business as usual, but has an understanding of the business, to understand the nuances that people face and the challenges and they’re just kind of in there and people can just do drop in sessions of ten to 15 minutes and this person doesn’t solve any issues, they just send them back. Well, they respond with questions. For them to think this is about empowering your people and I can’t remember it probably had something coaching it, but without trying to go back to. And I can’t remember what it is. There’s a programme that a lot of organisations have, EAP employee assistance programmes, which has its role, but once again you’ve told the person they must leave the site of where they are to go and that has a role. But what if sometimes you’re embedded and someone just needs something to help them through the rest of the day? And I think that person’s embedded in the organisation, it’s something around coach, but I can’t remember the exact name that I would have given it and we.

Trina Sunday: Definitely need a different model for that. And I’ve talked before around employee assistance programmes essentially are not trusted by organisations either. And you get six sessions, so if your trauma is going to outlast six sessions, there’s just, there’s a lot that goes with it in terms of mental health, fitness and wellbeing. There’s a lot of different ways we can show up in that space. And as we mature in our understanding, acknowledgement and reducing the stigma around mental health, then I think we’ll see some really innovative solutions coming to organisations. I’m actually really hopeful about that because the dialogue is shifting and I think what would be powerful, though, is to see how that attaches to organisational trauma, because I feel like organisations, it can feel quite natural to lean in to help a person that’s going through something personally. The shift is an acknowledgement of an organisation that they may be the ones creating the damage.

Yemi Penn: Yeah.

Trina Sunday: And how are they going to step in to help people, cope and heal, and not come out damaged?

Yemi Penn: Yeah.

Trina Sunday: And I see a lot of it and especially I see it with HR leaders and chief HROs and, we’ve changed language in my profession a lot in terms of where people and culture is, but there’s a lot of burnouts, there’s a lot of damage. We often can really hurt HR people in a restructured process because there’s no HR to help. So there’s a lot, senior HR leaders that are being chewed up and spat out in a very, very dehumanising way. And there’s a lot that we need to learn, and I feel privileged to be able to step into that space to help those individuals in terms of their clarity and confidence around what to do next. But the trauma is deep. Like, the scars run deep. And even with some of my coaching clients,  typically I work with people on three month cycles because you want people to be fresh and getting momentum, but sometimes there is so much depth and people have lost so much confidence in their ability, and it’s not because they’re not competent, it’s because of the trauma they’ve experienced in the organisation that’s made them doubt themselves. And so there’s a lot that I’m curious to know. There’s so much. I could talk to you for hours, Yemi, this. It’s why I travelled to Brisbane to meet you.

Yemi Penn: I love it.

Trina Sunday: But I think if you were to look at. And I guess in closing reflections, if you were to look at what reimagining HR might look and feel like for you, what would that be?

Yemi Penn: I’d go back to what HR was originally intended to do, because sometimes, like I said, history leaves clues. And for someone who’s never worked in HR, HR stands for human resources. That hasn’t changed, has it? That’s what it stands for.

Trina Sunday: If people are being polite, that’s what it stands for.

Yemi Penn: Right, okay. I dare not ask. Considering that language varies for all of us, resources really feel like it takes away my humanity. Yeah, it really does. And I’m sure for some people they might not feel that, but if I could just maybe lean into the global vibration, it feels like I’m a commodity. And even for those that go into that role, I think it will be difficult to connect to the humanness with that still remaining in it. Do I know what the alternative name is? No, I mentioned human centric. It could or it could not work.

Where does the support look like for those in HR roles

But you’ve also just brought me closer to something else. Where does the support look like for those in HR roles? Because once again, we’re asking sick people to look after sick people. And if we do not give them any access to stuff that ideally is outside of the organisation, because Albert Einstein, love him or hate him, solve problems with the same mindset in which it was created. And if you think support is going to be given to your HR team by the organisation that’s going through the problems and experiencing trauma, you’re wrong. So I’d say reconsider the R and HR and figure out an external group that can support those currently in those positions.

Trina Sunday: And I think I’ve seen people talk about human relations as opposed to human resources and, but again, it’s not changing. We can change the label, but we have to change what’s in the jar, something people would have heard to be safe, and it requires a whole different approach. Right. And I think that,  humanising the way that we look at our,  people practises is really critical, I think, to your point, supporting HR in that, which is why I’m so passionate about the work that I do, because I don’t want people to be chewed up and spat out and have that experience and I know I can help. And so it’s a privilege to kind of be able to serve in that space. But, I think a lot of it, we do need to equip HR to really understand kind of the impact around the work that we do and how we can be a vehicle for really positive change in this space. And I think that’s something that we can look at further.

I want to thank you so much, Yemi. I’ve loved our chat

I want to thank you so much, Yemi. I’ve loved our chat. I could talk about this, as I said, for hours, and I think you’ve given me some food for thought, for some follow up conversations. So I really thank you for your time.

Yemi Penn: Thank you so much for having me.