Reimagining Mental Health: Real Talk with Michelle Daw

Episode 17: Reimagining Mental Health: Real talk with Michelle Daw

Welcome to Reimagining HR with Trina Sunday, the rule breaking podcast

Trina Sunday: Today I’m chatting with Michelle Daw. She’s the principal psychologist at Braveheart Wellbeing and she’s committed to amplifying the community’s voice within organisations, supporting employers and developing strategies that recognise the human aspect of their workforce. We’re talking about mental fitness, we’re talking about what happens at home and the impact that has at work and what happens when we take our work home. So tune in and let us know what you think. Welcome to reimagining HR with Trina Sunday, the rule breaking podcast where we challenge our thinking and our current people practise. This podcast is for time poor HR teams and business leaders who are feeling the burn, lacking laughs and not feeling the love. I’m Trena, your host, and I’m here to cut through the B’s, explore different ways of thinking and create high impact HR functions because happier, healthier organisations are better for our people and our bottom line. So if you are keen to flip traditional HR on its head, hit the follow or subscribe button. So you’re the first to know when new episodes drop. I’m,   here to help and also to shake things up.

Michelle Daw is the principal psychologist at Braveheart Wellbeing

So let’s get started. Michelle Daw is the principal psychologist at Braveheart Wellbeing, a wellness hub dedicated to providing mental health support to our community. She’s got experience across diverse industries, mining, including FIFO, engineering, workers, comp, insurance, and she works with teenagers, parents, adults, community groups, organisations, schools, you name it. And she’s helping them to understand mental health and improve their wellbeing. And what I love about Michelle is that her approach goes beyond the work environment, so focusing on the broader aspects of life that impact wellbeing. You know, our connections with others, the purpose and work engagement, personal care, environmental factors outside of work, including trauma and financial stress, parenting, parenting and interest. And so I’m super excited to talk to Michelle today so we can explore the intersection of work and life when it comes to mental health. So welcome, Michelle.

Michelle Daw: Thank you. Thank you for having me.

Trina Sunday: So good to have you here. For people that may follow us a little bit, we do cross paths quite a lot. We’ve become very good work partners in terms of some of the work that we do, but come at things very much from a,  different point of view. But what I love about you is that you’re so incredibly candid and straight up and you’re all about real talk and very down to earth when it comes to conversations about mental health. Can you share with listeners? I guess that might not know you a little bit about your background and kind of what shaped the work that you do now.

Michelle Daw: Sure. Firstly, thank you for having me. I’d always said when I was younger, if I could find a job where I could drink coffee and chat to people, happy days like that would be the perfect outcome for me. And it wasn’t until my early thirties that my therapist said to me, have you ever thought of doing psychology? So, I am a late bloomer when it comes to study. And part of the reason for that started way back in my schooling days when I struggled in a learning environment. I found classroom teaching so, so difficult. Couldn’t concentrate, felt dumb, felt like my ability was not there and I couldn’t match up with all my peers at the time. And so that led me down a path of, like, I go to uni, I’m not smart enough for uni and I really love to work and connect and engage with people. And my parents were working in mining at the time that actually sent us to boarding school to get us out of mining. And my brother and I both landed back in mining as soon as we finished school, so not sure how well that worked for them, but I started in a lab, crushing rocks, literally sampling and crushing rocks and twelve hour,   days, 13 day fortnight. I was 17 at the time and from there, mining was in my life until I left it,   around the year 2000, when I decided to travel overseas and do some exploring. Outside of that, it’s pretty hard to transfer the skills of a process technician to Cambridge in the UK. So I learned to touch type and got an admin role and then came back from Cambridge and decided I would give study a go. So, long story short, I did one degree that was not really for me and then started psychology in my mid thirties. But I feel like I don’t regret any of it because all of the paths that I have accessed and been exposed to, the environments I’ve lived in, the connections I’ve made along the way, the people I know, the experiences I’ve had, some traumatic, some like exciting and life changing, have all led me to where I am now. And I believe very strongly that it also helps me connect human to human with the people that I now work with in my everyday business, which is brave heart wellbeing. So yeah, I think it allows me to understand in some way the human in front of me.

Trina Sunday: I think that’s part of the superpowers that you have in this space with some of the conversations, you know, you’re all about destigmatising mental health and some of the conversations that happen around that and I know that the conversations you have are so non clinical and relatable and I think that varied background that you have does play into that really significantly. And I think your sharing around the study is really interesting because I’ve been having some conversations over the last week with HR leaders that are at crossroads and they’re looking to change careers and the imposter syndrome, the doubt, the lack of confidence around study, a contingent of HR professionals that don’t have tertiary qualifications and it’s such a sticking point for them. And I’m like, don’t even worry about it. I haven’t used my degree ever in the work that I do, but it’s that notion of, I don’t know if I could do that and so people are judging me for not having it or. But then we have, like, what you shared and that was that you didn’t feel like you had that academic. And it’s amazing what you learn once you kind of, you know, into your later forties going to fifties around how stacked the academic processes against people that learn differently. And so that’s been really interesting as I look at diversity as well in terms of learning in organisations but also in classrooms.

Michelle Daw: Right. 100%.

Trina Sunday: And I think part of where there was really value in us having a conversation, part of the reason I reached out is because I really see us a bit of yin and Yang maybe, I don’t know, but, you know, opposite perspectives and I’m always trying to seek out people that look at things differently to me. Right. So I might be the corporate, you’re the community, you know, I look at the voice of the employee, you’re the voice of the community, you know, but both of us are about happy, healthy humans and you and I have had conversations in the past around who you are at home is what comes to work and what’s happening at work goes home with you. And so we know that there’s a crossroads there, right. Lots of organisations are not healthy places to be, though.

Work affects home life, home life affects work, our relationships

And I think, you know, I’m keen to kind of, I guess, kick off our chat around what impact you’ve seen good bad around. What is the community sharing in regard to what impact their jobs are having on their life? What are you seeing out there?

Michelle Daw: Yeah, I think that it’s so interconnected and if we talk about work health and people focus on workplace safety and we could go into a very long conversation about psychosocial safety and I have some different thoughts around that. But, you know, work affects home life, home life affects work, our relationships, setting boundaries, whether it’s at home or work, and how we connect with people. It’s also related and also interconnected. So when you have something like a toxic workplace, that stress and potential distress that comes from being in that environment flows throughout your life. So, we talk about things like imposter syndrome. If you walk into a workplace where there’s already a little bit of doubt around your ability or your position in the company or what you’re giving to people, and then you have an environment that feeds that, that can be just invasive everywhere, because then you start to doubt your ability as a friend or as a parent, if you are a parent, or as a partner, as a, sibling, a, child, whatever it happens to be. So I think it’s super important for us to understand the interconnectedness and to know that toxic environments are not okay. It’s to be able to recognise it, but then also recognise, okay, what impact is this having on me? What level of control do I have around this? Is there an opportunity for me to talk to someone about it or to share my concerns at the workplace, but also at home? Because a lot of the time, if I’m working with adults, because I work across different age ranges, and they say that if something’s happening at work, that can then lead to them making poor choices outside of the workplace. So they have that doubt that’s building because of their role and their position, they go home and their coping strategies may not be healthy, which then affects family life, which then affects their function and personal care, which then affects the workplace, which then keeps that cycle going. And so people don’t necessarily know how to interrupt that or make changes to that. And what level of control they do have over it. So often if I’m talking to adults, we’re working on strategies that they do have in their control that they’re able to bring into their life. And a lot of it is also around their strengths and what they’re doing.

Toxic behaviour has an impact beyond the workplace

Well, one of my favourite questions to ask in session is to say to people, and what are you doing? Well, it’s so, so interesting because most people sit back and go, uh oh, I haven’t met our start before. If I say to them, what are your challenges and barriers and difficulties? They can reel me off a whole range of things. The minute you start to ask people what they’re doing, well, they’re not sure because they’re not always checking in on that. So toxic behaviour absolutely has an impact beyond the workplace. And beyond that specific relationship within a team or within an organisation or person to person, it goes beyond that.

Trina Sunday: Mhm. And I had a recent chat with Kelly Swingler. I had her on the podcast recently and we were talking about burnout. And in the context of toxicity, a minor sense of self equals burnout. And I think part of the toxic environment is just, it’s like our bodies, right? We have toxins in our bodies. It’s like it can impact our physical health. And so when I think about mental health, you know, the toxicity and those negative emotions, those negative thoughts, all of those things spiralling around it then does impact our physical health. But that sense of self, which is, I guess, at the core of it,   what’s taking away from people’s resilience to cope in that, and then obviously bad choices and some of that self medicating with substances or, you know, there’s things then that. It’s a spiral effect, right? It’s impacting sleep, nutrition, all that kind of thing. But I think part of it for me is when I look at some of the strategies and when I think about, you know, cause even with development and what you’re saying about what are you doing? Well, the same thing comes up when we’re in performance review meetings. Our systems and the systemic processes are stacked for the remedial conversations. Right. We’ve lost touch with just the simple, oh my God, thank you. You did a great job today. You smashed that presentation, Michelle. Like, kudos. Like, that was amazing. You know, that unexpected, timely feedback. But I think we don’t do that for ourselves. We don’t give ourselves any of those things.

So I’m curious what are some of the strategies that you do talk about?

So I’m curious to know what are some of the strategies that you do talk about? So you mentioned, and not a deep dive into them, but like, what are some of the things that I know you, and I know you’re a bit of a whiteboarder, so I can just imagine the non clinician in you kind of standing and like drawing stuff and getting inside the conversation at a level that people can see it. But what are some of those strategies that come to mind for you that you’re thinking about?

Michelle Daw: Yeah, and it’s funny you say that because whiteboards are great, right? Imagine if you get up there as your own little teacher and you’re like, sorry, if. I swear, if I offend anyone, I’m going to whiteboard the shit out of this. I’m going to mind map myself because I mind map with people like, you can put anyone’s name in the middle and then go, what influences you. And we talk about self, and there are so many factors that influence self. And let’s say someone is diagnosed with anxiety. They are not anxiety. Anxiety is part of their experiences and part of their life, and it may influence. It may be a superpower in certain respects and it may be a barrier in others. So whiteboard yourself. I’m all for creative journaling as well. I know people go, oh, journaling. Eye roll.

Trina Sunday: That’s me. Sorry, I’m eye rolling.

Michelle Daw: I can hear everyone’s eye roll and they go, (groan) journaling. I couldn’t think of anything worse.

Trina Sunday: I believe in it for people where that helps them channel it. Yeah, it’s very valid. So I’m not dissing it as a practise. It’s just not my practise.

Michelle Daw: If people say it’s not for me, that’s okay. There are so many different ways.

Trina Sunday: But the whiteboarding. I’m on board.

Michelle Daw: Yes. And that’s journaling. Right. Because all you’re doing is using a different medium to journal.

Trina Sunday: True.

Michelle Daw: If you like the pen and paper journal, great. I would always recommend get a journal without dates. So you put the date on when you are in a,   space to lean into that rather than, oh, my God, it’s Monday and I’ve got a journal and I don’t feel like journaling. And now I feel shame and guilt because I’m not journaling. And my therapist said I should journal. Now I’m not journaling, and that turns into more crap for them. So it’s like, journal in your time and space. That feels right if you are going to journal the crap. And this is where I think, again, we lose sight of the benefit of it because people think it’s for just brain vomiting onto a piece of paper about all the things that are going wrong. No brain vomit.   What’s going wrong? But what action could I take? What can I control? How can I make this a little bit different for me? How can I put a boundary in place? Challenge yourself on the ideas that you are writing about. You could put a word up there like toxic and then explore what that means to you. And why is it that the workplace is toxic? What is it about it that doesn’t sit comfortably for you? If there’s songs that resonate with you, write them down, use colouring, whatever it’s going to take to kind of explore you a little bit when we’re getting to know ourselves that strategies are different for everyone and what works for me will not work for everyone. And it might be a new thing that they go, oh, yeah, that’s kind of interesting and a cool way to look at it and I’ll give it a go. And if you give it a go and you don’t like it, don’t do it anymore. That’s okay. I think there is a little bit of information overload out there, though. I think there’s so many tips and tricks and strategies and tools and all this stuff that people go, oh, I’m not doing any of that. Does that make me a bad human? That I’m nothing? Self caring and what is even self care? I don’t like the term myself, but.

Trina Sunday: I’m working on that, right, myself. And this is the vulnerability, right? Like, so I don’t have a podcast and have a platform to show up and tell everybody how to be great at stuff like everybody else. And I’m sure you would acknowledge as well. I’m trying to figure this stuff out. And I know that self care has been really low on the list of priorities for me, especially if I’m in mum mode. You know, there’s two businesses. There’s the mum stuff, there’s the daughter stuff, that sandwich generation thing in terms of caring up, caring down. You know, there’s all the things, right? And so self care, who’s got time for that? But that’s the problem, right?

Michelle Daw: You can’t fill from an empty cup. So if you are not finding ways to look after you, and whether it’s as a parent, as a child, again, all the hats that we could possibly wear, none of the people out there that you’re supporting or   wanting to help or be there for or look after, get the best you if you are not looking after you.

Trina Sunday: And that’s the boundaries, right? That’s the non-negotiables that all of us have in terms of blocking time and protecting that time as much as we do with other things. And that’s what I’ve had to do to kind of approach and just to block entire pieces of time. And it’s the same as some of the conversations I’d had with Donna McGeorge when we talked about space being the new rich.

Michelle Daw: Yeah. And in that podcast with her, you spoke about how she said no is a full sentence. Yeah. And you can say no without apology. And I think it’s super important because you don’t have to be sorry for looking after yourself. So check in on why you’re apologising. And do you actually need to if you say no to going to a party because you are bone tired and exhausted. You’re not going to be great at the party, you’re not going to enjoy yourself. It’s only going to make you more exhausted. Saying no is actually for the betterment of you and for others around you.

Trina Sunday: But this is the thing socially, right? No, I can’t come because I’m tired doesn’t fly, right? So the reality check is, it does for us, because that’s the truth. Talk around, you know, but I think it is trying to find comfort in the language. And the more conversations we have about this, then people can realise that you are in control of where you give your energy and your time in life. But that takes a lot of learning. Or unlearning, I would say, actually, yeah, unlearning.

Small steps are critical in making change in life

Michelle Daw: I love that terminology. Because we are adapting and adjusting and you don’t have to make changes everywhere all at once. Small steps are critical because, I don’t know, some people out there go and climb Jacob’s ladder in Perth and good on them, but they don’t look at Jacobs Ladder and go, I want to get to the top, and all of a sudden I’m at the top. They have to go step by step. And that’s in life. Everything that we want to achieve, whether it is going back to uni or redirecting your career, or making change to self care, it’s all little steps. And what can I achieve today that’s going to help me adjust this behaviour in the long run and form that habit? And then when that feels more comfortable, what’s the next thing I can do? How’s that helping me now? What else can I add to that? To feel better and to have more and do more and show up the way that I want to show up in my best way.

Trina Sunday: And that’s the sense of self epitomised. Right? And I think. But socials aren’t helping with this. I think, you know, we’ve got the whole Instagram life presenting kind of what’s not real. And so I love reality cheques when I see people that are just being so raw on socials. And I just love it. I gravitate so strongly to the people, not because they’re broken, but because,   they’re real. And I think there is a relatability in the realness that we’re missing. And that can become the thing that becomes attractive about you, actually, because people, I find, in my experience, are naturally drawn to people who are being their authentic self because you kind of know what you’re getting, right? You don’t have the whole trust. This is in my experience, but it’s kind of, you know, my B’s radar goes off pretty quickly and my spiny senses go off pretty quickly as I’m walking down the street, if I clock someone coming towards me and it doesn’t, you know, like, my senses are quite heightened, I’m intuitive. Everyone is built differently in that regard. But I think when you have people that are sharing that story, it’s important. It’s even just striking to me because you do so much work on your socials and I love how relatable, you know, you’re dropping videos all the time around, just tips and tricks, and they’re so brief and accessible, and I’ve heard so many people talk about how useful those insights are and just how human the conversations are. And obviously, taking the stigma away from mental health is a big part of what your innate kind of motivations are. Ah, reflecting on the fact that even when you just drop into your intro, when I was talking to my therapist and blah, blah, and it’s such a natural conversation, there’s still so many people that will not, I was going to say disclose, then. Terrible word. It’s not about disclosing, right? They won’t share that. They still feel like it’s a sign of weakness instead of like, what I see at the gym, which is a personal trainer that’s helping you get all the tools, the tips and the tricks for you to get physically fit. Isn’t psych the same for mental fitness?

Michelle Daw: Yeah, yeah. And I’m on board with that because we go and sign up for a gym membership. And yes, I’m going to use it a couple of times.

Trina Sunday: I’m sure I’ll make it there.

Michelle Daw: I might go once every six months and check in. And we do that. Right? So if we sign up to the gym, some people sign up to rehab from injury, some people sign up to strengthen their body, some people sign up because it gives them confidence, some people sign up because it helps them feel physically stronger and therefore it has a flow on effect to their life. So I see myself the same. Like, if someone comes in, I’m trying to help them, I’m working with them to strengthen their mind and to rehab from injury or to find new ways for movement and function. And that can be mentally. So our cognitive load is phenomenal. And we use this word busy. It’s so overused because everyone is busy, I believe. Busy, busy, busy. I went to my massage therapist recently and I said, oh, have you been busy? I use it myself all the time and then go, oh. And she said to me abundantly so. And I’m like, oh, I love that. Because she said, I’m so grateful that I’m able to do the job that I do and have the life I have. So she shifted the focus from, oh,   I’m so busy and it drags people down to, I recognise that my life is full and that fullness of life is meaningful to me. Do I sometimes get tired from that? 100% and do I sometimes need a break from it 100%. However, it’s full. And I tried to use the word productive as well. I’ve been so productive today. I’ve ticked off so many things or done so much stuff and I’m super proud of myself for being able to achieve that because everyone’s busy and it’s almost a little dismissive. I’m not sure if you notice sometimes, but if you’ve had a super busy day and I have teenagers, lucky me. So I come home and then I’m like, oh, how’s everyone staying there? Like, busy. And I’m like, yeah, mine too, but it’s like, okay, what does that mean? Like, we’re all busy. But you know, what’s been great about today? What’s been a bit tricky about today? Where are you at in terms of, do we sit and connect or do you want a bit of time to just take a brain break? And I think exploring it more than just being busy will let us understand each other and human to human, better rather than. Yep, I hear you. Why, why are you busy? I’m busy because my kids, I’ve got to run them from daycare to school to this to that. Yeah, yeah, I hear.

Michelle Daw: Can I help or. And break it down a little bit?

Trina Sunday: That helps understand it, because I’m working on that. Right. It’s been my go to. How are you going, Trina? Yeah, so busy. How you go, like. And it’s like, that’s not a feeling word. Let’s try and change it up.

What do you think organisations need to do differently to support their workers on mental health?

When we’re talking about kind of that shift in mindset, though, and we’re talking about trying to give people different tools around that reflection and enhancing sense of self and, you know, just being more aware of what’s happening with mental health, do you see a role for HR in being better allies in that,   what do you think organisations might not be HR necessarily. You might talk more broadly, but what do you think organisations need to be doing differently to better support their people when it comes to their mental health.

Michelle Daw: It’s interesting because I have a small organisation basically employing people and sort of what value can I add for HR in this space? But I suppose I’m employing people and working with different people’s agendas and needs and expectations. And I take my hat off to everyone who works in HR because I think it’s such a difficult position to be. And I know that you’ve recently done your podcast on being in the middle and being either there for the employee, people on the floor or managers, or however it’s discussed. So firstly, I think organisations, it needs to start from the very top and filter down, because things like role modelling and leading from the front and showing up in a way that you expect your employees to show up because it very quickly goes into toxicity or division. If what you’re asking your workers to do is different to what you are prepared to do yourself, and it’s okay for those at the top, but what about those of us who are doing the job or helping this business run? And I think that it’s going back to the human factor because we lose sight of that very quickly. We do performance reviews and that’s based on performance. We have policies and procedures in place on how people should behave and act, but also we need to go back to the human. What is the multifactorial, complex influences in a person’s life, both in the workplace and outside the workplace? How we do that, I understand it’s very, very complex. And the conversations I’ve had around this with different people in different roles of leadership. When you and I have spoken about this, it’s not simple. And I’m definitely not here to say, here’s a simple solution. Because in all honesty, I’m not sure that it’s out there.

Trina Sunday: Mhm.

Michelle Daw: But it is a matter of opening up conversations and that can be done as a team, as a workplace, but not just like let’s set these values as the way that we all agree to work, let’s lead by that as well. From the top, all the way. Every level of the organisation, every part of the organisation lives by these values. And human connection is crucial. And because of things like social media and Zoom and everything that Covid brought about, of this isolation and disconnect, we have disconnected from the human to human connection and how to have conversations and how to lean in and be vulnerable even. Because then that brings in the stigma of mental health, that people are worried about being vulnerable because they could lose their job because of it or it could impact their ability to be promoted in the future.

Trina Sunday: Hearing does lie, the complexity. Right. Because this is the real talk around. Like, if I reflect that back, my observation would be execs aren’t walking the talk. But then if you put the link to that, it’s because we do have societally and habitually built a whole system around CEO’s and the C suite or everyone else being the most powerful, the most dominant, the most whatever dudes. But this strength, it’s based on perception of what strength is, though, because I think you and I both define it differently.

Michelle Daw: Strength and power.

Trina Sunday: Yeah. And I think that. That the power and ego that sits in there is part of, I think, the biggest challenges against vulnerability, mental health, and then it robs us of our ability to be courageous in moments that matter. So then we’re not having those conversations, Michelle. We’re just not. Like, they’re just not happening. And I think it’s part of why I wanted to reach out, because it’s kind of, I think intellectually, everyone would say, yeah, we want to be a good human. We want to have good human connection. But then we’ve got this whole job that gets in the way from the technicians to the leaders to the front line. Like, everyone’s doing the thing.

Trina Sunday: Right. We’ve built the whole structure out of that business, as you talked about. So it’s kind of a cut through. The cut through is where I think it’s tricky. It’s tricky to figure out where to tackle first. But I think conversations and building a mechanism for encouraging, enabling and empowering conversations happening on different things at different times could be a strategic move that HR could mastermind.

Michelle Daw: Yeah, because it’s not just the worry of, like, even just the idea of having a conversation. There’s complexity with that. Because if the concern is I need to go and ask this person if they’re okay, I’m super worried about what the answer is going to be and what I’m going to do with that. And do I even have any power within my role to do something with that? And I want to be there and hear them and provide support, but in what capacity am I able to give that? You know, if we think about what we just spoke about in terms of being busy, there are so many tasks and obligations within a day to day working for HR. Right. So how do you then take the time to sit and have a conversation that is not necessarily going to be okay? Quickly, we need to have a quick conversation. Let’s set a 20 minute meeting aside, and you need to quickly tell me what’s going on here. People need to. It’s the little 20 minute moments of, hey, like, let me check in. You know, how have things been?

Trina Sunday: Like, just an open conversation in passing.

Michelle Daw: Yeah, we have. Are you okay? Day has. Are you okay? Every day? Just, um. Yeah, I’m just going to go and say, hey, how are you? Anything I can talk to you about, or do you need to talk to me? Or. And I think also that sometimes people go into conversations wondering how they fix it. Like, if someone discloses something to them that is uncomfortable and they’re like, oh, my gosh, what do I do with this? What do I do with this information? And my choices could make the difference between life and death. So what I really want to get across to people is, you don’t have to have the answers. You don’t have to have the solutions. Like we spoke about earlier, what might work for me won’t necessarily work for everyone. So one of the best things to do is if you notice someone that is in crisis or not doing great, put it back to them like I’m noticing. Are you okay? How can I help? They may say, I have no idea. That’s okay. You don’t have to have the answers. But I am here to brainstorm the shit out of that. If you need me to. We’ll whiteboard it. We will get up there and work out what factor is influencing you or where the challenge is. Like, I’m here for that. Or if you just want to sit and brain vomit and tell me everything that’s going on unconditionally, I’m here to listen to that as well.

Trina Sunday: And I think there’s an element of, you have skills in that space, though. And I think this is where the reality is that you have a capability and therefore a comfort in that space, probably, that some people don’t have. And so they don’t want it to get to the extent of the whiteboarding or the brainstorming or the. Because then they’re in it. And I think that part of it is we have to have the conversation, though. And even if it’s not a,   how can I help? Even if it’s a,   what do you need?

HR teams need to step into space of supporting mental health of peers

Michelle Daw: Yeah.

Trina Sunday: And then you listen to that, and then it’s like, let me see what I can do to try and help get what you need.

Michelle Daw: Yeah, yeah.

Trina Sunday: And then you walk away, right? And then you call someone that really knows this shit and knows what to do, and you phone a friend. But I think that that’s the bit that we haven’t equipped HR teams but also leaders, but everyone in organisation, because every human right is going to be able to step into this space of supporting the mental health of peers, and we’re seeing it go wrong too many times for us not to be in this space. And this is where I think, you know, and you mentioned the psychosocial hazards and the psychosocial safety kind of framework, and I think this is where that’s taking us even further away from these real conversations. Like my personal opinion is around the fact that we’ve gone mandate over motivate, you know, compliance over compassion, and it’s all becoming another jargony, HR safety speak, and it’s losing that human touch as well. And I think one of the things that I heard you talk about once was I was listening to a whole room, I can’t remember where we were, but there’s a whole room of people talking about psychosocial safety and what needs to be done and what you do and having the conversation. I just remember you sitting there and you just went, yeah, but what if people aren’t talking? What if people don’t want to talk?

Michelle Daw: Yeah, you can have all the policies, resources, heaps, you can have all that in place, but if no one wants to come and say, I need to talk, or I would like to talk, or can I share something? It doesn’t matter, none of it matters. It may reach some, which is great, amazing. They’re still super, super important. I really want to make that point, but we need people to trust and there’s a lack of trust. And you’re right, I think the wording around psychological safety, I mean, that in itself, hello? It just sounds awful. It’s like, sorry to all those people who first bought it and have a very strong passion about it, however, it just feels so clinical or led by organisations. But interestingly, research is showing a shift away. Like 20 years ago, all the work in research was around performance, behaviour, organisation, goals, all that kind of thing. But now it’s more words like creativity, knowledge sharing, knowledge hiding. It’s opening up a whole world of things, because then we start to get to the human right. What allows someone to be creative could be the work environment, it could be the job they’re doing. So it’s sort of expanding our language, I think.

Trina Sunday: Yeah.

Organisations need to be pro-active in protecting workers from psychological harm

And I do think with psychological safety, I do want to make a point with that as well, because I think one of the most critical things that’s come out of the shifts in the safety legislation is a requirement for positive duty. So what that means for listeners that don’t know what that means is you have to be proactive in terms of protecting people from psychological harm in the workplace. So it means you can’t just sit around, wait for someone to be harassed, wait for someone to be so unreasonably overloaded in work that they are worked into the ground and it impacts their health significantly. You have an obligation as an organisation to fix that shit, to not let things get to that point and not put people at that level of risk. And I think that is shifting the accountability and it’s shifting the conversation. So it’s, you know, those legislative penalties are at least getting some momentum in terms of organisations pulling their fingers out.

Michelle Daw: Absolutely.

Trina Sunday: I think the opportunity though is to humanise what they’re doing. Right.

Michelle Daw: Yeah. And it’s allowing conversations. The conversations, though, in my experience, keep coming back to work based hazards. And the trick is that it is very difficult to put things in place when you don’t know who’s walking in the door. You don’t know what they’ve been through, what their last workplace. And people are worried about disclosing that because of what the implications would be. I’ve had people come and see me and say, I won’t go under a mental health care plan because I’m worried that having that on my file will affect my ability to get jobs in the future. How concerning is that? And mental health care plans are there to support people with their psychological gym membership and to give them a little bit of a rebate on it. It doesn’t mean that there is something wrong with you because you are reaching out.

Trina Sunday: There’s some organisations that need to hear that, Michelle. So I know some organisations who do have that as a screening thing. Yes, I know they are organisations that you would imagine would be having their employees facing trauma. And so they are linking that a mental health plan somehow means that someone won’t be equipped to deal with trauma at work and you just can’t look at it that simply. Right. I would rather have someone on a mental health care plan who knows they’ve got something to work on, they’ve got someone supporting them to do it and there’s a level of monitoring that goes with it. It’s like we’ve got these psychological landmines all over the place that we don’t know because people haven’t leaned into that level of, say, assessment and support. And so I see it as a positive. But we know that organisations are doing that and so those people are actually quite insightful to even know that that’s going to be a thing. But I guess that there’s a lot systemically, I think that needs to change. But I think that I’m curious to know, as we kind of bring together, because I think who’s walking through the door thing’s the key. Right. There’s been so much conversation from a HR perspective around the delineation between work and home. And, you know, and Covid’s thrown up a big blurring of the lines. Right. And remote work and home based work. You know, I remember back in the day, like 20 plus years ago, when if someone needed to even work from home as part of an injury management return to work programme, like, you had to send someone to their house to do an ergonomic assessment because the liability,   that you could have if they then exacerbated their injury in the home, like all this stuff we’ve got, like people working from home all the time and I think that’s part of the challenges. So that blurring is there all the time. And I think organisations are feeling,

Trina Sunday: to be honest, like it’s too hard, you know, it’s like we can’t be responsible for all the things.

Michelle Daw: Yeah, yeah. And it’s complex.

Trina Sunday: Yeah. How do we package that up? So organisations do feel like they want to step into a space to better support mental health.

Michelle Daw: Mhm.

Trina Sunday: But from that proactive mindset, not thinking that it’s suddenly something that they’re going to be, you know, locked into or it’s going to have some negative consequence.

Michelle Daw: Yeah. And getting to know your people, you know, people don’t want to necessarily talk about all the details of their life and they have absolutely every right to put boundaries in place and then some people have very open boundaries and tell you everything. So it’s sort of, I think in some ways, if I can provide a few tips, like there is definitely a way, whether you are a HR worker, a leader, a,   manager, a parent, anybody can learn the skills that I take into my work of asking a question and then providing time and space for that person to answer things like removing distractions. So when they are speaking to you, then you are listening because there’s nothing else distracting you. And in the workplace, that can happen by finding that environment where someone feels quite safe in having a conversation, but it may not be in an office, across a desk, because for some people, particularly people who are neurodivergent, do not enjoy the eyeball to eyeball conversation, sitting side by side or walking is a great way to kind of have a conversation without it feeling super intense. And stepping outside can be a great way because if you just go down to the park and you’re sitting under a tree or. And then just having a, uh. I just wanted to take, you know, ten minutes to check in. If there’s anything that’s worrying you or, like achievements you’d like to share, not just the challenging stuff, but anything you want to share that’d be amazing. Like, happy to kind of do these check- ins when I can. I know, time, poor people. It’s challenging, but just being curious around someone. Now, if this is difficult for you, start by being curious with yourself. Why is this difficult? What am I worried about? What are they going to say? This happened for me, and this is around pretty challenging questions. And I’m,   using the terminology of around suicide. And it does show up just so that your listeners are aware of it. I was worried about it, and when I first started this job, it’s super concerning. And I spoke to my supervisor about it and said, you know, these conversations are really, really difficult and they should be because, yeah, it’s a big thing.

Trina Sunday: It’s everything.

Michelle Daw: However, that one conversation I’ve had when people have gone, you are the first person that’s asked me that. Thank you. And that changes a life in a really, really positive way. My worry was, what if I asked the question and that leads them to the point of hurting themselves more? And my supervisor was like, you know what? You don’t have the power in that moment to make that change. There are so many factors that have got them to that point. So be curious about them. Be understanding of yourself, of why it’s uncomfortable, and get support around that, so that if it is uncomfortable, you can lean into a mentor or a support person to say, I’m not sure what’s going on for me in these moments. So you’re learning, always learning about yourself, always learning about other people also helps in other areas of life as well. 

Coming back to that, what’s the agenda in the conversation? If the agenda is to do a performance review, it already starts with a barrier, right? But if the agenda is, I want to understand and be curious about this human in front of me or next to me, it starts a different conversation, which can then lead into, oh, my gosh, that makes sense of why. We’ve noticed some things have been challenging for you. Your performance has been shifting and changing. We’re concerned about what’s happening. So then it opens it up a little bit and creates a sense of trust because trust is critical. Trust is so, so critical. And I think that can be the barrier in talking sometimes, that if I tell you something, it’s going to have a flow on effect that will lead to either me not getting the job that I want or you trusting me to do my job. But we want people to be open about what could be affecting them. It doesn’t have to be a crisis either. If we start these small conversations and build a sense of trust, we’re giving them a way out and a way to talk and a way to engage and seek support well before a crisis hits. And that’s what we want to do. We don’t want to be reactive because then we’re trying to catch all the steps that got them there in the first place. We want to kind of be proactive, hey, you’re starting here. Give me a little bit of idea about what’s the best way for you to talk. Who would you feel most comfortable talking to? Would it be that we go out and have a bit of a walk? Would that help? How can I help you to feel more comfortable, to be able to have a conversation? You are always going to get people that go, no, I don’t want to give them the opportunity.

Trina Sunday: Yeah. And I think that curiosity really is key, right? And that. It’s such a cool word, but like, cooling its application, right. Because I think it’s, with everything, it puts us in a different frame, you know, where we’re kind of at that, oh, someone says something to you and you disagree with them and instead of going, nah, mate, you’re wrong, it’s that. Tell me more about that. You know, like, it’s where the space for learning is. And I think in listening to you sharing, because I can imagine some people are thinking that that’s just a whole other thing and they’ve got to structure all these conversations. I think it’s about how we make this an organic part of just how we interact with people, right? It’s changing and being a bit more mindful around where we do it, how we do it and what it looks like and will do it in their own language around, you know, like. And that’s where it’s criticised as people skiving off. But like in the city, for example, or in business districts, the coffee run is one of those things where it’s like you’re walking side by side on the pavement and these conversations are happening all the time. And I think, you know, organisations judge them as lost productivity in a way. But what you have happening in those moments often is colleagues backing each other, in supporting each other and helping them in that time.

I’m curious, you’re not necessarily coming from a HR background

I’m curious, you’re not necessarily coming from a HR background and that’s okay. But as we close out our chat, I’m curious to know, because I am curious if you could do anything differently. You know, what does reimagining HR look like to you? What would be different in organisations for our people?

Michelle Daw: I think. And even as a business owner,   and working with my own staff, I’ve learned so much in the last five years about the importance of conversation and clear conversation, because I’m not in the thick of that organisational HR. I imagine it is busy and the pressure is insane from everywhere. I think maybe it is because the HR people are human too. Yes, I know. Let’s ditch the resources and just be we are the humans helping other humans in this workplace. And organisations, managers, leaders, I believe they need to understand the benefits and purpose and meaning that their HR teams bring. And I know that you are a very big advocate for having more HR people sitting at the table and being in the meetings and sharing their understanding of the humanness of the organisations. And from a leader perspective, that needs to be embraced and seen as the best opportunity to understand your people through the experts of people being HR.

Trina Sunday: And I think there’s a lot that I’ve taken out of our chat as well, just around, I think, some key messages for HR in terms of the self care, which I think is, you know, that’s not evident really in the profession, you know, that in serving ourselves, we better serve others. And I think that looking at that and how we can humanise, obviously our interactions. But I think that, you know, if we’re reimagining how HR can influence in this space and look at mental health and wellbeing generally, I think there’s something in that, in terms of the curiosity and the conversations and how we might be able to give some tools to our leaders and our employees around how they might be able to approach that in a different way.

So, Michelle Daw, thank you very much for your time and I look forward to talking to you soon.

Michelle Daw: Thank you for having me.

Trina Sunday: Thanks for tuning in and leaning in to this week’s episode as we look to, to reimagine how we show up for our people, organisations and community, reach out to us via our website at reimaginehr.com.au with your HR horror stories or suggestions of people you’d love to hear from or topics you want to explore. It’s all about people, purpose and impact, and we are here for all of it.

Until next time, take care, team.