Episode 40: Why CHROs Make the Best CEOs in Times of Chaos
Last episode explored the pattern of HR leaders stepping into the CEO seat
In our last episode, why chros make the best CEOs in times of chaos, we explored the surprising pattern of HR leaders stepping into the CEO seat when organisations are on fire. It was an episode about proof that HR leaders can and do make outstanding CEOs, especially in the toughest of times.
Trina Sunday: But.
Trina Sunday: And it’s a big but. That conversation also sparked pushback. Some people said, well, HRs never given the chance. Others claimed people and culture doesn’t provide the business exposure. And that’s exactly why we’re here today. Because this episode isn’t about defending hr. It’s about challenging the excuses and naming the real gaps that hold us back and more importantly, what we do to close them.
Reimagining HR with Trina Sunday is a rule breaking podcast
Trina Sunday: Welcome to Reimagining HR with Trina Sunday, the rule breaking podcast where we challenge our thinking and our current people practises. This podcast is for time poor HR.
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Chros often become CEOs when organisations are on fire, study finds
Trina Sunday: So let’s get started. Previously on Reimagining hr, we asked a provocative question around why chros so often become CEOs when organisations are on fire. And what we found was clear. The very skills honed in hr, from trust building to leading through chaos, make people leaders. Some of the most effective CEOs in the toughest moments, we examined leaders such as Lena Nair at Chanel, Mary Barrat General Motors, Nigel Travis at Duncan Brands, and Ann Mulcahy at Xerox. The message was clear. When companies are imploding, boards often turn to chros because we’re the ones who know how to steady the culture, rebuild trust and lead with empathy and clarity when everything else is falling apart. But wow, did that spark some conversation in the DMs? Along with some, uh, applause, there came a chorus of pushback. HRs never given the chance. We don’t get the business exposure. We’re not seen as commercial enough. Now, I could let those comments wash over me, but let’s be honest, that’s not my style. So in this episode, I want to respond not with sympathy, but with some straight talk. Because HR isn’t A victim. We are not locked out of CEO roles. But yes, there are some gaps we need to own and fix.
Victim mentality is often misused or oversimplified in leadership contexts
So let’s get into it now. Let’s start with the line I hear really often, like, HRs never given the chance, friends, that’s victim mentality. Like CEO roles are not bestowed like fairy dust. They’re earned by leaders who build credibility, seize opportunity and make themselves impossible to ignore. Most of them anyway, that aren’t on a path from nepotism. But waiting to be chosen is not a strategy. Taking control of your career is. If you’re sitting there thinking, well, no one’s ever asked me to step into an operational role. My question to you is, have you put your hand up or have you convinced yourself that it’s safer to stay in the HR lane and sidebar because I nerd out on language like victim mentality is usually described as kind of a habitual mindset, you know, where someone consistently sees themselves as powerless or targeted or disadvantaged in some way, even when they have the agency to change their situation. It’s less about a one off moment of difficulty and more about a recurring pattern of thinking. And it shows up in loads of different ways. And some good culture diagnostics often tell us a bit about this style of thinking in organisations. And it looks like things like externalising blame, you know, believing problems are always caused by others systems, circumstances that were powerless. So assuming that you have little or no control over your outcomes, so the effort feels kind of pointless and chronic negativity focusing on unfairness, barriers and obstacles rather than possibilities or solutions. And it’s also reinforcing identity. So seeing oneself. Can’t say I use that language very often, but you know, like seeing yourself primarily as like the wronged party, which can sometimes become the default lens, shortly followed up by a dose of avoidance of responsibility. So struggling to acknowledge your own role in situations or opportunities for change.
But it’s important to note that the term victim mentality is often misused or oversimplified, in my opinion. So let me be really clear here. There’s a world of difference between being a victim of genuine harm or inequity, which is never a choice, and falling into a professional mindset of waiting to be picked. One is about structural injustice, the other is about personal agency. And I wouldn’t want us to confuse the two. But in workplace and leadership contexts, victim mentality usually refers to when people are default to being passive. Instead of taking agency, it’s waiting to be chosen rather than stepping forward. And newsflash boards don’t hand out CEO jobs because you’ve waited patiently. They pick leaders who demonstrate they can run the business.
HR executives lack confidence with numbers, the customers and shareholders
Which brings me to the next excuse. I want to talk about people and culture doesn’t give you business exposure. I call absolute bullshit on that. And I had that response from a couple of people like, I’m, um, in my people and culture wheelhouse. I’m not getting the exposure to the business done properly. HR sits at the centre of business transformation. We lead restructures that shift millions in cost, we negotiate enterprise agreements that define competitiveness, and we run talent strategies that make or break growth. The problem isn’t a lack of exposure, it’s a lack of translation. We talk about engagement while boards want to hear about margins. We say wellbeing when the CFO is listening for productivity. It’s not that HR doesn’t have the experience, it’s that we don’t frame it in the commercial language that’s on us. And here’s the real gap. Too many HR executives lack confidence with numbers, the customers and shareholders. Like, do you know the three biggest drivers of revenue in your business? Can you explain where margin is being lost and do you understand what your customers value the most and how your people strategy, of course, then helps deliver? Uh, that. And if we can’t answer those questions, then that’s the missing ingredient. And this is especially critical for women who dominate HR but are still often excluded from commercial mentoring and some of those leadership pipelines. So too many women in leadership programmes focus on confidence, assertiveness, networking. All important, yes, but they often neglect the hard edge of business. Financial literacy, customer strategy, what are the priorities of our shareholders? And that’s exactly the gap that holds us back. It holds back otherwise brilliant HR leaders from being seen as CEO ready. And I don’t see that as a skills issue. I see that as a visibility issue. Boards want leaders who can speak their language, P and L risk growth. And HR needs to learn to do that really fluently.
Trina Sunday: Right?
Imposter syndrome is that nagging voice that tells you you’re not good enough
Trina Sunday: But the other elephant in the room, and it’s come up in my DMs, but interestingly, not on the feed, is imposter syndrome. So I’ve had quite a few people respond to this episode around the Chro to CEO journey. And I’ve had people say quite candidly, imposter syndrome’s holding me back. Now, at its core, imposter syndrome is that nagging voice that tells you you’re not good enough, that you’ve somehow bluffed your way into your role and that sooner or later you’re going to be found out, right? And it’s more common than people think. Even the most successful leaders that I work with admit to feeling it. But here’s the problem. We’ve started throwing the term around so loosely that it’s lost some of its meaning. Not every moment of doubt is imposter syndrome. Sometimes it’s just discomfort, discomfort of growth, or the normal nerves that come with stretching into new territory and doing new stuff. In HR though, I see imposter syndrome, real or perceived, play out in some pretty dangerous ways. Too many HR leaders don’t put their hand up for operational projects or cross functional gigs because they convince themselves I’m not commercial enough. Meanwhile, our colleagues in finance or operations don’t hesitate to step into our HR projects, often with zero background in people leadership. They just back themselves, you know, because they’re humans. So why don’t we. You got a bank account, you work with some numbers, own it. Why do we accept being boxed into HR when we could be leading a broader business agenda? This isn’t just about confidence, it’s about habit. It’s about a career limiting pattern, one where we play small even when we’re capable of playing much bigger and we’ve got to break it. And I worked with a HR leader a couple of years ago who’d built her career brilliantly in talent and culture. But she kept turning down invitations to join cross functional project teams. And she outright told me in one of our coaching sessions, you know Trina, I don’t understand the commercial side well enough. I’ll just slow them down. Eventually, she said yes to a major supply chain transformation project, reluctantly, probably just to shut me up yet, with that imposter voice still buzzing in her ear. But within weeks, she realised she wasn’t expected to know logistics or procurement. She was there to spot the people risks, to redesign the workforce model and to help managers communicate the change. You know what happened? She ended up being one of the most valuable players and voices in the room. That project gave her visibility with the COO Chief Operating Officer. It gave her exposure to P and L conversations, profit and loss, and the confidence to say yes to the next opportunity. She was also nominated among her peers to provide updates to the board, given how strong her comm skills were. And today she’s sitting at the exec table, leading not just hr, but she’s also got customer experience in her portfolio now as well. And she’s the front runner to be her CEO successor. And that’s the thing with imposter syndrome. The only Way to shrink it is to step into the space anyway, because growth is what comes on the other side of discomfort.
Trina Sunday: Right.
Several people share their opinions on what’s holding HR back
Trina Sunday: But there’s a few more gaps I see when people share their opinions on what’s holding HR back. We’ve all got a lot of opinions. I sure do. And one is around the language and the framing. We talk culture, they talk competitiveness, we talk engagement, they talk margin. We need to bridge the gap. The other thing would be, how would I describe it? Maybe short termism. Is that a term? You know, HR often lives in the world of fires and fixes. Yes. We might have people strategies that are, uh, three to five years out, but a lot of our existences in the world are fires and fixes. But CEOing done well, also not a term, they think, in decades.
Trina Sunday: Right.
Trina Sunday: Because business has a long game. Especially depending if you’re in a business that’s product based or, you know, you’ve got innovation, product lines. The other thing is around networking and sponsorship. In terms of gaps, we are brilliant at, uh, developing others, but often forget to build our own network of sponsors at a board level. Like, if you are in the most senior HR role in your business and you don’t know or have never interacted with your board, you’re pretty far from that CEO trajectory, which might be fine, you might be happy there. But if you want to shift that, you need to shift that network. You need to get sponsorship to be in front of people so that they know what you bring to the table and then use your data for storytelling. Like, we’ve got access to people, analytics, if we can get our systems to talk to each other. But we struggle to translate it into the kind of insight that shifts board decisions. And that’s where we need to frame it differently. And these aren’t reasons for giving up. Like, these are invitations to step up.
Trina Sunday: Right.
Trina Sunday: So how do we actually fix it? Uh, there’s practical things we can do to try and put ourselves in a better position. If you are a chro or head of HR and you’re wanting to move into the C suite, if you’re not there already, or into a CEO role, ultimately.
HR leaders need to form a personal board to help boost their confidence
Now, one of the things I speak to my coaching clients about and HR leaders I work with all the time is forming a personal board. Just like a company has a board, you need one too. That’s a group of mentors and challengers. You know, they might include a senior leader outside HR or a peer in another industry, a digital native thinker, uh, a truth teller who calls you on your blind spots. There’s different roles that we need in our life to give us the insights and some of the visibility that we need on how we’re showing up. And here’s how I think about each roles and how you might find them.
Trina Sunday: Right?
Trina Sunday: One is a peer. You need a peer on your personal board now. They walk alongside you. A peer validates your work, they share fresh ideas and they remind you that you’re not alone. Because HR can be lonely. The top of HR can be super lonely. And to find them, look around your immediate professional circle. Colleagues in hr, people you studied with, peers that you meet at industry events, online HR communities and mastermind groups are also gold. And I know that people that come into my HR mastermind love that part of it in terms of building out a really close, intimate relationship with others who are going through what they are going through. But you also need a cheerleader on your board. They’re your encourager, right? They’re the one that lifts you up when you’re doubting yourself and they help get you on track. Now, often this is a trusted friend or a long time colleague or someone outside your industry who believes in you. Without conditions, it’s less about the credentials, right? That’s more about the emotional support. Another role that you can have on your personal board is a career coach. They push you to grow, they challenge your thinking and they help you to clarify what you really want. And career clarity is everything. I, uh, talk about the sweet spot between the things you’re good at, the things that the market needs and the things that light you up and get you out of bed in the morning. If you can find that sweet spot, everything is gold. And career coaches can help you do that. So hire a professional career coach. Yes, invest in yourself. HR leaders often do not invest in themselves or find someone through HR coaching networks or me. But there’s some organisations that provide internal career coaching programmes. So don’t overlook them, tap into them. We’re often the ones that are setting them up and selling them to everyone else and HR are often not participants and that just blows my mind.
You also need a mentor on your personal board to help you grow
You also need a mentor though, on your personal board. In my opinion, this is someone that is kind of critical on a personal board. Other roles might come and go when you need them at different times, but the mentor’s a senior level supporter who shares your wisdom, your guidance. They open doors for you, they show you what’s possible. And I’ve often had people seek those mentors out through professional associations or alumni networks. But even within your own organisation, don’t be afraid to approach leaders that you admire and ask for an informal coffee. Many are flattered to be asked. And in my experience, people are incredibly generous. We just never ask for help. We’re really terrible at it. Another role that’s great to have on a personal board is a, uh, connector. They expand your world by introducing you to people and opportunities that you wouldn’t have found on your own. Look for that person, the one who always seems to know everyone. They’re often really active on LinkedIn. They’re present at uh, industry conferences, involved in cross sector networks. Build authentic relationships with them, not transactional ones, and watch how they work a room. Are, uh, their interactions authentic or are they just there for the photo op because they want to be seen? Because that’s not what you want. You want someone who has genuinely got great connections that can help introduce you to people. It’s really important. And the last role that I think is great to have on a personal board that all of us neglect. I’ve got my hand up here. Wellness coach. They keep you honest about looking after yourself. Your health, physical, mental, spiritual, financial. Your health, your resilience, your energy. Because burnt out HR leaders don’t become CEOs. And I’m seeing a lot of burnt out HR leaders, folks. So this could be a professional wellness coach, sure. But it could also be a trusted colleague who you see that really prioritises wellbeing. Or even a peer that you train, meditate or walk with pretty regularly. But you’ve got to choose someone that’s going to call you out if you’re neglecting yourself. My wellness buddy, they call me out when I’m neglecting myself. They call me out strongly like Trina. Uh, not okay. Not okay. Your work patterns, they are going to kill you. Stop it. But they do it by encouraging you to do other things. Shift the habits. Let’s go for a walk. Let’s do something different. Get out of the office, get fresh air, move your body. But your personal board doesn’t have to be formal and people might not even know they are on. It sounds manipulative when you say that out loud. But the key is to intentionally surround yourself with people who bring different strengths so you’re not just relying on one person for everything. And remember, you don’t have to build this board overnight.
Trina Sunday: Right.
Trina Sunday: Start small. Add one or two people to help stretch you. And then over time you’ll create a circle that makes you stronger, sharper, and far more ready for the CEO seat.
Getting into the business will help you build commercial confidence, Trini says
But there’s some other gaps that we can focus on. And your personal board can help address these. One is to get into the business. Volunteer for projects outside hr. Sit in on customer calls. Shadow a sales leader. If you get the chance, attend a board or a shareholder briefing. Take it. Take the chance. Be in the room. Because those opportunities and others will help you build commercial confidence. We need to know how to read the P and L. But more than that, because I sit in a lot of exec and board meetings and you’ll be surprised how many people do not understand P and L profit and loss. But you’ll also be surprised at how many CFOs don’t always provide value. Adding insights to help an exact discussion around what that P and L means. So be the person in the room that asks really good questions. That helps you build your commercial acumen, but it also adds value to the conversation in the room. Seek to understand what drives revenue, what drives our costs, what’s the margin here? And then you can frame your HR initiatives in those terms. Right, so, for example, what’s an example? You know, like, don’t pitch a wellbeing programme. Pitch a plan to recapture $8 million in lost productivity. But we also need to challenge imposter syndrome, which I can feel lots of people will have coming off the back of me saying, recapturing 8 million lost productivity. How do I do that? Stop waiting until you’re 100% ready. Say yes first and then figure it out. That’s what I’ve done my whole life and it’s what’s got me to where I am. Yet my whole life I’ve had people say, oh, Trini, you’re just so lucky. Everything falls in your lap. Nothing aggravates me more than someone calling me lucky. And then they find out I’m Sagittarian and they call me the lucky Sagittarian. But this is what peers in other functions do all the time. And that’s what Lena Nair at Chanel lives by. Always say yes to the most difficult task, even when you’re not ready. Say yes to the opportunity, even when it’s not your comfort zone or your knowledge guru space. Say yes to the opportunity, because that’s going to help you learn and that’s going to give you the confidence for the next one. You take the next step and the next step, and it’s not a hierarchy you’re climbing, it’s broadening out the skills, the knowledge and the abilities you have that are needed for the top job. And to help you with that, you can obviously work with a coach or a partner. And that’s a lot of the work I do at Reimagine hr, right? Like, I help HR leaders step into their power as change makers, not just administrators. You know, we want to drive epic business performance and employee experiences. So if we want to lead at the next level, you don’t have to do it alone. You need to find someone, anyone, that can help you to elevate what you bring to the table. But also identify if there’s a chair missing or if you needed to have invited someone to dinner. And there’s a big gap there. You need those people in your corner that can help you identify the blind spots. So here’s the bottom line, right? Uh, HR is not held back from the CEO role. We are not victims. The path is there, but it’s on us to walk it. So if we can shift the mindset, sharpen our commercial edge, put our hands up for the opportunities that stretch us, we won’t just be in the running, we’ll be the front runners. And the question isn’t, will HR ever be given the chance? My question to you is, are you ready to take it? And if today’s episode challenged you, good. That’s the point. Share it with a colleague who needs a push. Let’s keep building a community of HR leaders who refuse to play small. And if you’re ready to stop waiting to be chosen and start shaping your path to the top job, feel free to reach out. Like, this is the work I love, right? Helping HR leaders reimagine what’s possible. So until next time, keep it real, keep it human. And remember, the CEO seat isn’t reserved for someone else.
It could be yours.
Reimagine HR is all about people, purpose and impact
Trina Sunday: Thanks for tuning in and leaning in to this week’s episode. As we look to reimagine how we show up for our people, organisations and community, reach out to us via our website at reimaginehr.com.au with your HR horror stories or suggestions of people you’d love to hear from or topics you want to explore. It’s all about people, purpose and impact. And we are here for all of it.
Until next time, take care, team.
