Episode 48: The Human Edge: Critical Thinking AI & HR’s Next Frontier with Bethan Winn
Reimagining HR with Trina Sunday challenges traditional HR practices
Trina Sunday: In this episode, we explore how we sustain the human edge in a world increasingly shaped by AI, and how critical thinking, ethical leadership and human centred design become HR’s most powerful tools for the future of work. I’m joined by Bethan Winn, who helps people think better together as we explore shifting from doing the right thing to thinking the right way. Welcome to Reimagining HR with Trina Sunday, the rule breaking podcast where we challenge our thinking and our current people practises. This podcast is for time poor HR teams and business leaders who are feeling the burn, lacking laughs and not feeling the love. I’m Trani, your host and I’m here to cut through the bs, explore different ways of thinking and create high impact HR functions because happier, healthier organisations are better for our people and our bottom line. So if you are keen to flip traditional HR on its head, hit the follow or subscribe button so you’re the first to know when new episodes drop. Um, I’m here to help and also to shake things up. So let’s get started.
Trina Sunday speaks with Bethan Winn about ethical AI and responsible leadership
Welcome back to Reimagining hr. I’m Trina Sunday and a few weeks ago we spoke with Aubrey Blanche from the Ethics Centre about ethical AI and responsible leadership, how we can do the right thing when the answers aren’t always clear. And today we’re taking that conversation one step further. Because if ethics is about doing the right thing, critical thinking is about thinking in the right way. And in a world where technology is learning faster than we are, where AI is shaping everything from how we recruit to how we relate, the question isn’t just what technology can do, it’s what we’ll choose to do as humans. And I couldn’t think of anyone better to explore that with than Bethan Winn. She is a critical thinking and communication expert who helps people and organisations strengthen what she calls the human edge. Bethan’s work blends philosophy, neuroscience and practical approaches to help leaders make better decisions, challenge assumptions and connect with purpose. She believes, and I couldn’t agree more, that our greatest advantage in the age of AI is still how we think, relate and lead as humans. Bethan helps people think better together. Tell me more. Bethan, welcome.
Bethan Winn: Hi. Thank you for having me on. I’m excited to be here. Oh, gosh, where to start? Yeah, I help people think better together. Critical thinking, creative thinking, strategic thinking, holding space and, uh, upskilling people who, uh, perhaps haven’t had the practise in doing that as well. So, yeah, very passionate about it.
Trina Sunday: It’s really interesting to me to reflect on the fact that we need to actually focus in on how to help people think. And it’s something that I think we’ve kind of lost track of that as an art form versus a science. But what does the human edge mean to you in the context of AI and automation? And talk to me about the human edge and what’s come up for you in that work that you’ve done.
Bethan Winn: I think there’s a lot of fear around AI, as I’m sure you’ve seen and heard. And I’m very pro people in all this. I think AI can do a lot, but there’s stuff that it really can’t. And the fact that we still have agency in this whole thing, I think is really valuable. Just yesterday I heard Brene Brown refer to it as cognitive sovereignty. You know, taking back control of your brain and your attention and what you’re consuming. Because, yes, it’s so easy to just offload your thinking, you know, go with what the AI says to do. But as we see more and more, like I get some HR updates and every day someone’s being taken to court or sued over something and they go, but the AI made me do it. It’s like, well, that’s, that’s not okay. We can’t use that as an excuse. So just really keeping our defensive thinking skills on, not just accepting what AI puts out there or, you know, what we see on our screens in the same way that we go to the cinema and we know that whatever’s on that big screen is probably somewhat, you know, CGI animated and make believe, we need to do the same thing with our phones and just be like, hang on a minute. Is this actually true? Is it logical? Is it relevant? Is it actually what I want and need right now? That whole thing about intent and, you know, where do you want to go? Because you can do so much with AI, but is it actually values aligned? Is it going to make the world a better place? Is it what you want to do with your time? So, yeah, I think we need to just step, uh, back and say, hang on a minute. Is this how we want to be? And is this how we want to work?
Trina Sunday: It’s really interesting. Oh, my God. There’s so much in that. I love cognitive sovereignty for a start. That’s incredible. Like, I’m definitely, you know, because I think that we’re giving over agency or giving away the thinking sometimes, because I think that’s playing into some of the fear and just avoiding some of the hard stuff that comes with humaning. Not A word or adulting also not a word, but part of the train of vocabulary on the daily basis. Because adulting feels hard sometimes as we coming through a holiday season.
Bethan Winn: Oh, absolutely. And we want someone to give us the right answer. I feel this a lot.
Trina Sunday: Give me the answers. Because life’s too hard. Yeah, but I think that’s the thing. Human skills are more critical and more valuable as technology advances though.
Bethan Winn: Right.
Trina Sunday: Like how do you and lots of people in our challenge, and I know you do too, hence why the language is different. But this whole notion of moving away from soft skills. But how do you talk about human skills and talk with your clients and leaders about the criticality of them and what they even mean, like what language is being used.
Bethan Winn: From your observation, it’s different in different contexts. But I suppose there’s some skills AI, uh, can be really helpful with. Maybe think of them as behind the scenes skills. So if I’m um, currently typing up some notes, hence if anyone’s watching on video, there’s like post it notes everywhere, um, putting together a PowerPoint, creating documents, something I do quite regularly, but that’s kind of behind the scenes. Whereas if I was to be presenting that to a client or a group of people, AI can’t do that for me. I have to stand up and I have to be engaging and I have to deliver the same in meetings. You know, AI can produce the agenda, but it’s not gonna run the meeting for you. You have to be there, you have to read the room, you have to, you know, interrupt someone. And how do you do that? Or someone might make a suggestion you don’t like and you wanna say no respectfully. It’s like, well, the AI isn’t there for you. You have to be the one having that conversation. So those are your kind of front of house skills, as it were. So there’s that element. And I think, you know, when we’re looking at AI Leanne Hughes actually, who, uh, blurbed my book, she said, you know, if AI is the engine crit, steering wheel, like it’s knowing where you want to go, what’s the direction that you want. And you can’t decide that if you’re offloading all your thinking or you’re just constantly consuming and distracted. I think good thinking needs a bit of headspace. And these little black boxes that we all have in our pockets are very distracting. And the kind of hurry culture that we have and feeling that we need to react all the time. So even just something as simple as saying, look, I’m going To need to think about that. Can I get back to you or someone I spoke to last week? He said, uh, I don’t make any decisions after 2pm And I was like, that’s genius. And if you communicate that to everyone, what a great boundary. He’s like, I don’t think very well in the afternoon. Nothing is going to, you know, if you want me to make a decision, come to me in the morning or, you know, if they ask that. And he says, well, I need to sleep on it. And give himself a bit of thinking space and push back. Because we can, but we feel like we can’t for whatever reason. So permission to push back, permission to give your brain room to breathe, I think is so crucial.
Trina Sunday: And I think that hustle culture and, you know, devices have changed that.
Bethan Winn: Right.
Trina Sunday: It’s the same with even email.
People complain that email and teams chat are distracting from their work
Like, we never used to look and stare at our, you know, like our mail trays on our desk.
Bethan Winn: If you’re as old as me, can you imagine?
Trina Sunday: But mail trays on your desk waiting for the internal envelope to come, like, you know, with your name written on it and, oh, my gosh, I am going back here. But, you know, we never used to sit there staring at the desk and then as soon as an envelope hit, like, rip it open. And email’s, you know, driven that. And so that’s making people respond or I would say react. And then as you say, we’ve got mobile phones, we’ve got this highly responsive and it doesn’t allow the thinking time.
Bethan Winn: Right.
Trina Sunday: Like, so I say to people very often, let me let that marinade.
Bethan Winn: Yes.
Trina Sunday: Because things always taste better tomorrow. So I think it’s one of those things where it’s true people have lost though the art I think, of pushing back on that. They feel like they’re not delivering in some way. And I’m not quite sure where that’s coming from. What are your thoughts?
Bethan Winn: Oh, uh, look, some of it is kind of culture based, kind of with a small C, you know, in the workplace. I remember sitting with a senior leadership team a little while ago now, and they all got to this point where they agreed that email and using teams chat was horrible for all of them. And yet none of them was willing to sort of, or hadn’t up to that point, vocalised that and said, actually, you know, this is incredibly stressful because they had a culture of, you know, it was a, uh, very kind of meaning driven organisation and not for profit. So they all felt like they needed to all be on all the time. And if something was on your mind, you were welcome to send the email. And people say, oh, don’t worry, you don’t have to respond. And you go, do you know what? It would take all of 30 seconds to time that to be sent in the morning rather than 8 o’clock at night.
Bethan Winn: Because, you know, if you’re. Lots of people like me, if they’re kind of doing this double shift of like working school hours during the day and then you might hop on again later, I’m like, actually, I’m not hopping on again later to look at my emails from stuff. I’m hopping on for something that I need to get done and I want to focus on. So it’s kind of just being generous to the other person a little bit. But you have to have those conversations and say, hey, is this actually working? If I had teams chat like a lot of my clients do, popping up constantly, I would get nothing done. So I don’t have anything like that. And I really sort of get people to question how they’re using it. Because if you really got to concentrate on your work, you cannot have things popping up and pinging every couple of minutes.
Trina Sunday: It’s just crazy notifications for days.
Bethan Winn: Yeah.
We often talk about skills of the future. One of the things I’ve been reflecting on is leadership
Trina Sunday: We often talk about skills of the future. Well, I do, but I assume you do in some respects. That’s why you do the work you do.
Bethan Winn: Yeah, yeah, of course.
Trina Sunday: One of the things I’ve been reflecting on is we rarely kind of pause and ask ourselves, like, are we teaching people to think or just comply? You know, like, I think of the HR context and I think around we’ve been really good at telling people what to think and being overly prescriptive in policies and procedures. And then we wonder why leaders aren’t, um, taking agency to think for themselves and make decisions. But the future demands that, yeah, how do we help people build the judgement and the discernment in that world of info overload that you’ve just described?
Bethan Winn: I think, as you were saying, they’re like, acknowledging how it’s been historically. So, uh, an average, say someone in their 30s, currently, like young 30s, might m be looking to be promoted into a leadership role. If they’ve come through the school system like the kind of normal public school in Australia or the UK or America, they were taught to test, they were taught how to pass tests, they weren’t necessarily taught how to think, how to learn. They’re like, oh, I need to do an essay, I will write 500 words, or whatever I need to do to pass. And it’s almost like they were Trying to, you know, find the right answer, to tick a box, as opposed to explore and learn and research and, you know, think of something original. And then if they’ve gone into the workforce, say, you know, lots of people might go work for, um, a big organisation, something like a McDonald’s or a chain bar or something that is very much like, just do as you told, like do the process, follow the guidelines. You know, no one wants you to question how you flip a burger at McDonald’s. They might then go in their degree. And again, there is more and more what’s called scaffolding in education. So like putting boundaries and frameworks around stuff. You don’t get to just go write an essay, you get right, put the topic, sentence, evidence, what you’re saying, analyse that evidence, draw your conclusions, blah, blah, blah. So it’s all very structured and the same, uh, when they first start work and then suddenly you go, boom. Start thinking for yourself now that you’re in leadership. But not always, it depends on the organisation. Some places will just go, here’s all the processes you need to know, follow the procedures, you’ll be fine. But in places that have more flexibility and smaller places, they want people to take on that initiative. So it’s kind of reminding them that they, they can do this and they can do it in their personal lives. So then it’s bringing that kind of thinking over. Um, and this is where I support people a lot in terms of just getting them to realise they already know how to think strategically, they can be creative, they can think critically, but they might just need a little bit of a nudge and a reminder and a, uh, confidence boost. Most people come away from a session, they go, I feel more confident and I’ve got clarity on what to do when I need to make a decision, when I need to solve a problem. And then once they’ve got a bit of a, um, you know, framework or step by step, they can use that to build their experience. And with experience comes wisdom and uh, start to, you know, tap into their gut feel, which is basically pattern recognition over years of doing something. So, yeah, like, it’s, it’s all there. And I, you know, like I said, I believe in people, I believe in humans and I’m always impressed at, uh, how people will step up when they’re given the opportunity. So if you want your, you know, new leaders to take initiative, to do stuff and take action, they need to know that they’re allowed. So one of my main decision making models, the P point, is all about permission like, what are the expectations of you? And is the person who is above you letting you take ownership? Because sometimes that’s the challenge as well. When you’re micromanaged, or like you said, everything’s like, sort of prescriptive, um, and you’re told how to think, what to think. It can be very challenging to just, you know, buck the status quo a little bit or try something new.
Trina Sunday: And I think in the work that I do, in terms of reimagining HR and trying to shift how we show up, I talk a lot around things not being one size fits all and making sure we have an opportunity to flex. Because I do a lot of work in the equity space and equity by design, not by luck or default. And that means designing for diversity, minorities flexing to be able to meet people where they’re at. That’s, um, misinterpreted as over customising. And it’s going to create more work. It doesn’t. If we have critical thinking, it doesn’t create more work. It’s not additional steps, it’s a different way of thinking about it. So for me, when HR embraces more heart in their work, there is more courage, there’s more compassion, there’s more connection. Right. And so we, and I often remind leaders that I’m working with that our greatest innovation is still the humans that we have and our humanity. So the technology, like you talked about in the beginning, can analyse and can help with some of that back of house stuff, but it can’t empathise. And so if we are working with humans, which is the core of my work. Right, Yours as well, but for me, directly with the people. People, if we are dehumanising the way we’re showing up, then there isn’t any thinking in there. And we can’t put humans at the centre of our design.
Bethan Winn: Absolutely.
Ken Robinson says good thinking requires confidence and acceptance. Where do organisations are going wrong with this
Trina Sunday: So I’m keen to know what your thoughts are about that. Ramble.
Bethan Winn: Yeah, well, I. It’s funny, I’m sort of making a few notes there, as you were speaking, because I feel like there’s so much to unpack, but absolutely. That, you know, in a workshop, I’d say connection before content. If I’m talking to, like, education nerds, then it’s Maslow before Bloom. So, you know, Maslow’s hierarchy of needs. We need to feel safe, we need to feel, you know, welcome, we need to feel part of the group, whatever the group is, in order to sort of get to the higher levels. And then Bloom’s taxonomy, anyone from education would be aware of, um, there’s issues with it, but essentially, um, it’s kind of a hierarchy of thinking skills. And at the top it’s the stuff that makes up critical thinking. It’s analysis, it’s evaluation, it’s creativity. But in order to sort of do that good thinking, we need to feel secure, we need to feel part of the group. So in all contexts, really all parts of life, if you want people to thrive, then we need that kind of safety, acceptance, knowing that people see, hear and value us in order to do the other stuff. And if someone comes to me and they’re like, oh, you know, we, we want people to innovate and we want them to try new things, I’m like, okay, what happens when they fail? And they go, oh, well, historically they’ve been told off or sacked or whatever. Uh, and you go, right, you’re never going to get creativity and innov without some kind of failure. As it’s a Ken Robinson. If you’re not prepared to fail, you’re never going to come up with anything original. So, yeah, good thinking requires exactly what you’re talking about. Like that good grounding, that good safety in order to thrive.
Trina Sunday: Where do you find that organisations are going really wrong with this? Like, what do you see that’s squashing at, uh, critical thinking? We talked about policies and things, but what are you saying? Generally that’s a challenge for us when we’re relying too heavily on tech and AI or just moving further away from human decisions. What are you seeing?
Bethan Winn: Well, I suppose as you were saying at the beginning, you know, that there’s lots of pitfalls when you outsource your decisions, some more serious than others. Um, I’m seeing a lot of people if they’re cognitively offloading, so using a note taker in meetings or getting AI to do the research or whatever it is, they haven’t had the productive struggle, as it’s called, to get to the end point. So if we take a student analogy, but then apply it in the workforce, if a student gets AI to write an essay, spits it out, boom, there you go. Oh, look, that’s great, here’s an A star. But if you actually ask them about it, they would have no idea. They just, they don’t know the stuff. And in a workplace context, if you put that in a way of like, I don’t know, writing a report about something, you go, cool, all right, that’s great. What do you think? What are your recommendations based on this? Oh, I don’t know. So even in a very simple way, Sort of letting you know, like an AI note taker, uh, in a. In a meeting, do it all. And then you go, oh, that’s cool. There’s a record of it. Yeah, but you haven’t processed it. And I noticed that in myself. Like, I have to say, still sit with my pen and paper, good old notebook, and write things out to really process it, because there’s no room to hide, you know, you can’t just go, oh, yeah, yeah, I know what you’re on about. Like, in consulting, you need to quickly get your head around what, uh, are the challenges that someone’s facing. I think sometimes consultants are used to cognitively offload or have someone to blame, but that’s less about the AI and that’s more about people sort of trusting their own thinking, their own decision making, or sometimes not wanting to take responsibility. Perhaps that’s a conversation for a different time, though. But, yeah, I think when we take the person out of the process, it’s fine when it works, but when things go wrong, that’s when you go, oh, uh, yeah, we didn’t have a handle on that, or we missed that, whatever it might be. Like, you still need to get in there, get your hands dirty, and have that productive struggle with the things that are important, let’s say.
Trina Sunday: And I think I keep having the word connection come up as I, uh, listen to you talk there. Like, I think you got to connect with the struggle to then connect with the solutions. I think, you know, like, if you are not. I’m old school, too, in terms of, like, I will not remember things if I haven’t written it down with pen and paper. And there’s a lot of neuroscience that supports that in terms of, you know, knowledge retention and the impact of writing things down versus electronic devices.
Bethan Winn: Yes, I know, right? There may be some confirmation bias in there.
Trina Sunday: Yeah. I was in a meeting, um, last week where I did get chastised is the word that I would use as being the only person in the room with a notebook. And everyone had, you know, remarkables. Is that what they’re called?
Bethan Winn: Or, oh, yes, laptops.
Trina Sunday: Or, you know, the tablets and all that kind of thing. And it was really interesting because people were trying to make point that I was behind in the times. And it was a really interesting conversation and a great opportunity to kind of, like, just lean into that a little bit because it became a very good culture, uh, conversation because of the symbolism of, like, what it means to look productive and professional. So it went down a whole rabbit hole of, like, and then behaviorally like, why are you trying to single me out in a room? That’s really interesting? Like, let’s talk about that. So it was really, actually it was really helpful. It was really help because it was. It was pointing out those that do things differently. But I think. Sidebar.
Do you feel confidence in decision making is getting worse or is it getting better
But one of the things with the connection that I was just thinking about is, like, I think that people are not connecting to the decisions that they’re making, or they’re not connecting to the message that’s going out. They’re not connecting to the learning, they’re not connecting to each other because there’s a, uh, whole ether of gap between you and I on this screen. But the connection comes from, like, still try to look each other in the eye and listening and, you know, that kind of thing. And devices can get in the way of that. But I was really curious then around the last thing I was kind of thinking about was, are, uh, people actually then connected to the decisions they make? And you made a comment that people aren’t trusting. You didn’t use this language. But trusting their gut or trusting their decisions, um, I feel like that’s getting worse. Do you feel like confidence in decision making is getting worse or is it just looking different?
Bethan Winn: It’s hard to sort of put a pin on it and say 100%, yes, obviously there’s nuance in everything. But I do speak to a lot of people in all age groups, right, that struggle with decision making, which is why they often come to a workshop. But that storey around, they either lack confidence in their own choice and seek that kind of peer approval, whether it’s a personal thing or a, uh, work thing or whatever. And we’ve always kind of had that wanting to fit in with the group, you know, to fit with the norms of whatever culture we’re in. And a lot of people, this won’t work very well on a podcast, but I’ll. I’ll just explain kind of. I see a lot of this kind of messy spaghetti thinking. Like, they just. They don’t know how to get out of a cycle of overthinking or anxiety. And so I say, well, if you’ve got a few questions that can kind of cut through that and either broaden your thinking or deepen your thinking on it and just help you figure out what’s the next right thing. Like, action is the antidote to anxiety. So how can you just break out of this messy spaghetti and do something, anything? And I say nibble rather than scoff. You know, just those tiny incremental changes that Help you push out of sort of analysis, uh, paralysis and find out more information, build your confidence. And look, I’m, I’m happy to admit I have a bias to action. I’m like, just bloody go and do it. And as a, you know, solopreneur, most of the time I can just go do the thing. But a lot of people are scared to. They’re scared of other people’s opinions, they’re scared of getting it wrong. And a lot of, uh, our young people and, you know, your kids, same age as mine, very similar kind of space. There is so much kind of protection and putting the buffers in the alleyway at the ten Pin bowling alley, you know, like they don’t get a chance to mess up and screw up. And they’re more scared too, because there’s a camera everywhere, all the time. You know, they’re not quite there yet, my kids. But I’m hearing this a lot with sort of teens and older. It’ll be interesting to see how the social media ban plays into this. But because everything is documented, everybody knows what you’re doing. There’s more of a fear of screwing up, of failing, of something bad happening. And sometimes when bad stuff happens, it’s. It’s not great at the time, but it’s the best thing in terms of building resilience, building character, learning about yourself and your strengths and what your passions are. Uh, you know, we, we play a game and it’s in the book, unfortunately, fortunately, unfortunately, where we sort of go around a storey circle and everybody says good thing and then a bad thing that happens is usually Matilda, who plays soccer. She always breaks her leg, sometimes she gets abducted by aliens. But, um, you know, at the end you go like, well, what, what does that have to do with decision making? And I never say, you know, it has to be X, Y and Z. Everyone says different things, but that need to be kind of responsive, to wait and see what happens, to accept that some things go wrong but something else will come out of it is so important. And I think it’s a message that everyone can do with hearing on a regular basis. Like sometimes you just got to give it a try, see what happens.
Trina Sunday: Yeah. And I feel like the culture of our organisations, as you mentioned before, doesn’t support that level of, doesn’t give people that grace. And I think that that’s where I see hr, uh, having a really impactful role if they can work with leaders to shape that culture so people do feel safe and to question things and to be curious enough to learn you know, like, and learning comes from growth, of trying new things, right? That’s the head and the heart. Being aligned in that trust takes time, right?
Bethan Winn: So many places are like, oh, yeah, we’ve had three leaders in a row who chastised us for messing up. Now we want to embrace failure and innovate. And I’m like, okay, and all of you have been here how long? And they’re like 25 years. You go, oh, okay. And you want this to change overnight. Good luck with that standard.
What are some actions people can think about to encourage better decision making
Trina Sunday: So you’re, you’re an action figure. What are some of the behavioural habits and things. What are things that you talk about a lot that can really encourage better thinking and decision making? What are some actions people can think about?
Bethan Winn: I suppose if you’re not sure what to do? Flipping a coin, simple basic thing. Um, you may have heard this one before, Trina, but, like, if you’re not. If you’re tossing up between two things and you can’t decide, flip a coin, see which one it lands on, and then see how you feel about that. Like, you know, do you go, oh, flip again, or do you go, oh, that’s a pretty good one. So that’s a good way to kind of just cut through, because you can dance around the houses for hours talking about pros and cons or whatever. So that one’s good. If you’re worried about the consequences, saying, how can I make it more reversible or less consequential? So that’s a good kind of little testing way. Jeff Bezos refers to it as like, open the door, but keep your hand on the door handle so you can always kind of step back out. What else is good, man? Just pen and paper. The number of times at, uh, the start of a workshop, I’ll say, write down your problems. What are your current challenges? And then I say, who’s written those down before, like pen and paper or on a whiteboard or wherever? And I’d say maybe 80% of people, they’ve got things in their head and they’ve not written them down. And I think there’s a certain magic about getting it out of your head, getting it on paper, getting it on a shared space, if it’s a collective issue. And remarkable, actually. So here behind me is a, like a consultation thing. And we were talking about, you know, where are we now? Where do we want to be? And there was about eight tables, each with about eight people on them. And I was thinking, oh, my gosh, I’m going to have eight different versions of this, but they’re remarkably similar in that people know what the issues are and they know where they want to go and they’ve got great ideas about how to get there. But giving them just the space and time to discuss that, say those things that are on their mind because, you know, everybody’s busy, everybody’s just getting on with the next thing on the to do list. And then you go, hang on, have you spoken to them? Because that would be a really good conversation for you to have. Easier said than done. I know, you know, not everyone’s got sort of time and budget to, uh, have an off site or have someone come in, facilitate. But I think a good leader can do a lot with just, you know, post it notes for everyone. I love a post it note.
Trina Sunday: Love a post it.
Bethan Winn: Write down your answers individually. So think pair share is often used, right? So write down your answers and then compare with the person next to you. And then let’s see what, what we’ve got as a collective. But when people get the opportunity to kind of just cheque with the person next to them as opposed to like, hey, what do you all think? Hands up. And the same three people answer all the questions and the same people are sat quietly not saying anything. So. And it gives you that tangible, you know, takeaway you can collect in at the end. And so if someone hasn’t said the thing, then you at least have some evidence of what they’re thinking in a way to capture those quieter ideas that you might miss otherwise.
Trina Sunday: I think that’s key, right, because everyone has different ways of contributing. And so you’re tapping into that by having kind of different approaches as a facilitator. But I think, you know, as you’re talking there about what happens in a room and the magic that happens, you know, across the eight tables and then how you consolidate again, like it’s because people haven’t connected. But then I think we don’t carve out the time for thinking. So we talked about the hustle or the haste of responding and the turnaround and that kind of thing. But we’re literally filling our time with interactions but not giving ourselves any blocked time for processing and thinking or dreaming. I used the word dreaming in a workshop yesterday.
Bethan Winn: Love that.
Trina Sunday: Uh, and the CEO looked at me as if I was hallucinating or on some kind of drug that was illegal. And it was just really interesting. When you see someone have a visceral reaction to a word, it’s the same with sometimes. Last week I had someone have a visceral Reaction that took me by surprise and I’m still processing it, to be honest, to the word heart. I used heart in a workshop and absolutely lost his mind and was so interesting. And it was like. It just shows how far, uh, we are from leading with heart. And people think that’s fluffy and me being woo woo and just. But to me, that’s at the core of connecting with our people. And if our people are making good decisions, they need that coming off the back of being in that safe space and not having fear and automation kind of run the show. So we have to create that environment if we want people to be courageous change makers. Which is the work I’m trying to do with HR leaders. Right. To support humans at work more.
What gives you hope about the next generation of leaders
We talked about kids or touched on kids and education a little bit. What gives you hope about the next generation of leaders? I’m curious to know what you think is coming when you think about thinking.
Bethan Winn: Well, kind of interesting you touched on the heart piece there. I do notice my kids. I would easily confess they are way more emotionally intelligent than I am because they’ve been given that grounding from like day one. Kindy. You know, there is a lot more talk about emotions and mental health and awareness around that. I do wonder if there’s a bit of a pendulum swing. You know, I think the way that I was brought up in the UK was like, you don’t cry, you just crack on. Kind of keep calm, carry on situation is not great. I’ve seen situations where it’s almost paralysing because there’s so much focus on how are you feeling and how are you doing. And you’re like, hang on, you need to get the work done still in whatever way works, while still acknowledging that we’re all human beings. So yeah, that’s, that’s an interesting one.
There are some incredible educators and incredible young people out there that are curious
There are some incredible educators and incredible young people out there that are curious and clever and excited to learn and want to make a difference. I think I probably shouldn’t say the name of the project, but a project that I know that you’re aware of. Trina, There was applications out last year for someone to coordinate what was a very meaningful project that was kind of part time hours and really rewarding, like a really wonderful space to be working in. And they were absolutely inundated with applicants, like hundreds, and they’re a small team and they were like, oh my God, how do we even start to process this? Because, you know, people want to do something they care about and there’s a lot of engineers that work for certain Companies around Perth, in my sort of skill school, parent community. And lots of them would happily say, yeah, uh, look, I’ve sold out because I’ve got a mortgage to pay. And you know, are you. Do you like what you do? Are you inspiring? They’re like, well, I like the problem solving, but I don’t like keeping shareholders happy. But that’s the reality for a lot of people. You go, that’s really bloody sad, isn’t it? To feel like you’re just going to work to make someone else rich and to pay your mortgage. But these are the prisons that we create for ourselves. And I think young people today are questioning that a lot more and say, is that what I want? Is that how I want to live? They’ve seen parents burning out and being exhausted and working crazy hours and they’re going, no, thanks, not keen on that. So, yeah, it’s interesting. I go, well, who’s going to do the crap work? And is it going to still exist? I don’t know. It’s kind of interesting to see that shift and for generations, different generations in the workforce, those kind of clashes of kind of worldviews or work views is really interesting and tough to navigate. You need more of those conversations.
Trina Sunday: I think all of that resonates with me. I think I’m feeling really hopeful, though, and inspired that we do have a younger generation that, uh, to be honest, seem to have more balls than half of our politicians. And I think that if we can instil that research or that critical element around people being able to kind of process all the information. Cause we also see a lot of crap to your point around, like, questioning what we see on social media and is that even real and, you know, fake news? And it’s like, no, Uncle T, like actually fake news or, you know, looking at things from a different kind of point of view. There’s a lot to process. But what gives me heart and hope is the fact that there are so many people, and not just the young generation, but wanting to do things that’s meaningful, purposeful and to make a difference in the world. And I still then reflect that back to the fact that that is the human edge and that is the strategic advantage in the middle. Because at its core, we are built to be together and we are naturally, as a species, built to support each other and come together. And so I feel like we are, uh, going back and tapping into that a bit more. And we really just need some of the barriers to be taken out of the way as opposed to trying to put more in the way.
Bethan Winn: Yeah.
Bethan is the author of the book, The Human Edge
Trina Sunday: So, Bethan, we want to make sure that people can learn more about the human edge and the work that you are doing. So we will make sure that we have all of those details around where to get your book, the Human Edge, and how to get in touch with you in the show notes. So thank you so much for doing the hard work, Bethan. I think, as I said, the human edge isn’t something that’s just nice to have. It is a strategic advantage. And I’d really encourage everyone to kind of try one critical thinking moment this week and pause before reacting and question before deciding and definitely to connect before automating. Thanks, Bethan. Appreciate your time.
Bethan Winn: Thank you. Thanks for having me.
Trina Sunday: Thanks for tuning in and leaning in to this week’s episode. As we look to reimagine how we show up for our people, organisations and community, reach out to us via our website @ www.reimagine hr.com with your HR horror stories or suggestions of people you’d love to hear from or topics you want to explore. It’s all about people, purpose and impact and we are here for all of it.
Until next time, take care, team.
