Episode 39: Why CHROs Make the Best CEOs in Times of Chaos
HR leaders can never become CEOs, says Trina Sunday on Reimagining HR
Trina Sunday: Now there’s a myth I want to bust wide open today. HR leaders can never become CEOs. I’ve responded well, maybe reacted, if I’m being honest to this statement a few times in recent weeks. So I thought I’d take some time to showcase some chros who’ve made the transition and some interesting patterns I’ve noticed ahead of them getting elevated to the top job.
Trina Sunday: Welcome to Reimagining HR with Trina Sunday, the rule breaking podcast where we challenge our thinking and our current people practise. This podcast is for time poor HR teams and business leaders who are feeling the burn, lacking laughs and not feeling the love. I’m Trani, your host and I’m here to cut through the bs, explore different ways of thinking and create high impact HR functions because happier, healthier organisations are better for our people and our bottom line. So if you are keen to flip traditional HR on its head, hit the.
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Trina Sunday: Um, I’m here to help and also to shake things up. So let’s get started.
Trina Sunday: I can’t tell you how many times I’ve heard it as if the people function some kind of cul de sac in the career highway. But here’s the truth. HR is increasingly becoming the training ground for CEOs, especially when organisations are in deep crisis. And today I want to talk you through the stories of HR leaders who’ve taken the leap. People like Lena Nair, Mary Barra, Nigel Travis, Ann Mulcahy and others who prove HR is not just the support act, it’s the leadership boot camp.
Leena Nair is Unilever’s Chief Human Resources Officer
So let’s start with one of my absolute favourites, Leena Nair. She was born in India, raised and spent most of her formative years working in Britain. But Lena climbed through the ranks of Unilever to become their Chief Human Resources Officer. She was the first woman, first Asian and youngest ever to hold that role. It’s a trifecta of glass ceilings that she smashed. But it wasn’t about the title, it was about the impact. Lena led the people agenda for some hundred and seventy thousand odd employees in over 100 countries. And she did so much at that scale. She made change that mattered. She achieved 50, 50 gender balance for one in management, which was up from 30. She created career by Choice to bring women back into the workforce after career breaks. She rolled out uwork, which was, oh my goodness, such a pioneering model which blended gig flexibility with employee benefits. So basically you get to do gig economy and do gig work by assignment. But you still got some of those full time employee benefits. She also launched you Renew, which was paid sabbatical so employees could upskill and future proof themselves. And she also facilitated Discover your Purpose workshops, which helped thousands connect their personal purpose with Unilever’s values. So if you had a pet project and something that was going to do awesome things for the economy or help Unilever to balance out some of the impact they were having on the globe, then she created and facilitated these programmes where people could discover their purpose, do these pet projects, as long as they were aligned to Unilever’s values. And I first heard Lena talk about that during an event, Fit for Humans and Fit for the Future, which was hosted by the Implement Group in Copenhagen. And it was just fascinating watching her chro role extend so far beyond what traditional HR is seen to be. And beyond the programmes, she pushed Unilever into some bold commitments, like by 2030, to pay a living wage across a supply chain and equip 10 million young people with essential skills, all while keeping Unilever ranked among the world’s most sustainable and admired employers. But then came her big pivot in 2021, the pivot that nobody saw coming from shampoo and soap to, uh, haute couture. As the CEO of Chanel, people were stunned at first, but she has doubled Chanel’s philanthropic budget. She’s driven sustainability into the luxury sector. She’s increased sales, which the board really cares about, and she’s insisted on gender equity at the top. Like, sales are up, as I mentioned, but so is their community impact. Chanel’s had a not for profit foundation since 2011 that’s worked in solidarity with partners to create conditions for women and girls to be free, to shape their own destiny. And Lena Nair has taken the money that’s been pumped into that charity from about 20 million to $100 million, all over the world programmes enhancing conditions for women and girls to live their best lives. And I love insights that come from Lena. She has just such powerful messages. She always talks about,
you know, you always put your hand up for the most difficult job. She’s led with that mantra, uh, her whole life, but also lift as you climb. So she’s made it her mission to make it easier for those who come after her and ensuring that, uh, her privilege as a trailblazer is really used to create opportunities for other people. Leena’s kind of like an Aussie battler on a global stage. To me, she’s rolling up her sleeve, she’s getting her hands dirty. She’s crafting equity with conviction. She’s fared income leadership with a human heart. But she’s not Australian and it’s her factory floor beginnings in India that have her pegged as the underdog in a story like this. And us Aussies love cheering for the underdog. And it’s probably why Lena Nair is one of the most inspiring transitions from factory to chro to CEO for me anyway.
Mary Barra is the CEO of General Motors
But from Paris now to Detroit and Mary Barra, who’s the CEO of General Motors. Now, Mary started at GM at 18 years old working on the plant floor and her dad was a dye maker for gm. So cars were in her blood, which I can really relate to. My dad was a dealer principal car industry. I grew up on a Holden showroom floor watching cartoons and probably converting sales for mum and dads coming to buy cars. But it’s a really male dominated industry and Mary worked through engineering and operations. But she spent a few years from 2009, I think, to 2012 or so when she took on the pivotal role of global head of HR. Now this was right after GM’s bankruptcy. The place was bureaucratic, morale was tanking and trust just didn’t exist, right? And her signature HR move, really early on, when I talk about policy simplification, she changed the GM dress code that went for pages, seemed to read for days to just two dress appropriately. And it sounds really trivial, but it sent this shockwave through GM’s culture and suddenly trust was the rule, not micromanagement. And she flipped it on its head overnight. And then in 2014, Mary became the first woman to run a global automaker. And within weeks of that, she faced a shitstorm. A firestorm came at her and it was the ignition switch safety scandal. People had died like congress in the U.S. was circling. But she didn’t flinch. She faced Congress head on. She admitted GM’s failings and she launched the Speak up for Safety programme to empower employees at every level to raise red flags without any fear of retaliation. And things that I love hearing Mary talk about is that, you know, she talks about if we win the hearts and minds of our employees, then we’re going to have better business success, right? And when you look at the Congress and having to respond in that crisis, you know, that was a defining moment for her. And she talks about the fact that we had to show we’re doing the right thing, even when it’s really, really hard. And it wasn’t just her, uh, HR training as a subtext to that. It was part of the reason that she could lead GM through crisis, because she needed empathy. But she also needed a backbone.
Nigel Travis became CEO of Dunkin Brands thanks to his financial wizardry
Away from the car makers now and over to the HR rookie who ran Duncan. Let’s talk about Nigel Travis. Now, he started in HR at Burger King and he’s wonderfully candid about it, right? Like I’ve heard him say, I didn’t know one end of a balance sheet to another, but my people skills got me through. That’s what I’ve heard him say. And he went on to lead Papa John’s, which is not a massive brand in APAC down here, but he then became the CEO of Dunkin Brands. So taking donuts and coffee global. And his secret weapon was, not surprisingly, his financial wizardry. It was his HR honed ability to inspire belief and build teams and drive culture. And he talks about leadership being just that. Leadership is about creating belief. And he might, you know, steal some quotes around culture, eating strategy for breakfast, but donuts, uh, help too. But Nigel’s story is proof that you can learn finance on the job, right? But you can’t fake trust and influence and people leadership. Like, there are some things that we can teach and some things that we just need to have.
Ann Mulcahy is the HR leader who saved Xerox from bankruptcy
The next person that comes into my mind is Ann Mulcahy. Now, she’s the HR leader who saved Xerox. Oh, my goodness, Xerox. Now, she had a background in sales and hr and she served as the vice president of HR in the 1990s. And then in 2001, Xerox was drowning in like $17 billion of debt and it was on the brink of collapse. And the board made a surprising move, right? They gave the HR leader the top job. Now, Ann had to cut $1.7 billion in cost and lay off around 25,000 employees. That is devastating. But she did it with clarity and she did it with courage. And she made sure that she communicated that openly. She rebuilt trust in the organisation and she steered Xerox back from bankruptcy. And she talks about employees being your competitive advantage. She talks about employees being your everything. And, you know, she proves that HR leaders are not afraid to make tough calls, right? And you can balance empathy with taking really decisive action. Many chros who have become CEOs have spent time in core operations and they know the business inside and out. So it’s not just their people smarts that got them the top job. But, jeez, it certainly helped.
Many women or chros get tapped as CEO when companies are already in crisis
But then I think about another pattern that deserves some reflection and maybe a bit of righteous frustration or not. You can let me know. But have you noticed how many women or chros get the CEO job when the company is already in flames? Like it’s called the glass cliff phenomenon, when underrepresented leaders are handed the wheel just as the ship is sinking and they’re appointed in times of crisis, when the risk of failure is the highest and if they don’t pull off a miracle, the narrative becomes, see it didn’t work out with a woman. See it didn’t work out with a chro. But Mary Barra, she became CEO of GM weeks before the ignition switch scandal hit admiral. She was handed Xerox when it was drowning in $17 billion in debt. And Lena Nair, she took over Chanel as luxury fashion, faced a post pandemic identity crisis. Boards often see chros and women as steady hands, the human leaders who can rebuild trust when brand reputation is in tatters. But it’s also a poison chalice. They’re expected to fix decades of dysfunction in half the time with everyone watching of course. And yet many of them succeed. You know, Mary Barra, she turned GM into an EV leader and restored its culture and mulcahy slash debt. She rebuilt the credibility and she saved Xerox. And Lena Nair, uh, is steering Chanel into a new era of purpose driven luxury. It is very, very cool. And there’s some very good reasons why chros often get tapped as a CEO when a company is failing or in crisis.
When a company is in trouble, crisis equals people problem
And I’ve been thinking about why that is now. Crises are uh, people problems most of the time. They’re not just numbers. So when a company is in trouble, crisis equals people problem. The issues aren’t just financial, they’re usually cultural. Morale is down, trust is gone, turnover is high and employees are disengaged. Right now a cfo, uh, can fix the balance sheet, but that doesn’t help get people back on board. And boards often realise that they need a people first leader to reset the culture and re earn that credibility. And that’s where chros shine. But we also need trust builders in times of distrust. So chros are usually the ones with cross functional relationships. We know leaders across the entire business. We know the frontline leaders. We’ve often mediated really tough conflicts. So when things are falling apart, boards often look for someone who can rebuild trust quickly. And chros, good ones, competent ones, high performing ones, are often seen as the honest broker in the C suite. You know, they are the ones that can bring communication and empathy when they are under fire. Like turnarounds require some brutal decisions, layoffs, restructures, cutting Perks, you know, shuttering divisions. A chro is used to communicating tough news with empathy. And boards know that if you put a finance or an ops leader in charge during this time during crisis, they might crunch the numbers, but they also might lose the hearts. Now, this is grossly unfair to some highly competent CFOs, but those are the ones that are people leader first, right? So put your people lens on in that scenario. But a Chro, they can deliver hard truths and keep dignity intact. Because at the end of the day, in crises, reputation matters. Reputation, employer, brand is at stake. So how you treat your employees in tough times in it makes or breaks your brand. So a Chro turned CEO like Ann Mulcahy at Xerox or Mary Barra During GM’s ignition crisis often prioritise transparency, fairness and safety. And that can help restore both public trust and internal credibility. And boards want to see that cultural reset. Like when companies stumble, it’s often because the culture’s gone toxic. Bureaucracy, arrogance, complacency. Chros understand how to shift behaviours and systems. That’s why they’re often parachuted in. When a company needs not just a new strategy, but a, uh, cultural detox and, um, being people first, it’s a strategic differentiator. Especially post pandemic. Boards finally get that people drive strategy, not the other way around. So if you’re bankrupt and trying to reinvent, having someone who knows how to engage, retain and rally people is seen as an ultimate turnaround play. So when organisations are in free fall, boards don’t just need someone that can recite the quarterly figures with perfect precision, right? They need someone who can restore confidence, stabilise the system and get people pulling in the same direction. That’s why chros are often the ones that get the call in a crisis, because they’ve spent their careers navigating turbulence, resolving conflicts and keeping the enterprise human, even when everything else can feel somewhat mechanical. And it’s not just Lena, Mary, Nigel, Ann, who I’ve talked about, although all of them prove the same point, and that is that people leadership is business leadership. But HR is not a career cul de sac. It is not a dead end like it’s the proving ground. It’s for being in the CEO seat. HR equips leaders with exactly what’s needed when the stakes are at their highest. That’s courage, empathy, clarity, trust. So if you’re a HR leader listening today, don’t let anyone tell you that the ceiling is the chro’s office. Your skills are, uh, CEO skills. Imagine that before you go. If today’s episode sparked something for you, please share it with a HR mate who needs reminding that the path doesn’t end with policies and performance reviews. And I would love to know which HR to CEO stories inspire you most from around the world. Tag me on LinkedIn because I want to celebrate the trailblazers. Until next time, keep it real, keep it human, and remember, today’s HR firefighter could be tomorrow’s CEO.
Trina Sunday: Thanks for tuning in and leaning in to this week’s episode. As we look to reimagine how we show up for our people, organisations and community, reach out to us via our website @ www.reimaginehr.com.au with your HR horror stories or suggestions of people you’d love to hear from or topics you want to explore.
It’s all about people, purpose and impact and we are here for all of it.
Until next time, take care team.
