In this episode, I share about my disillusionment with corporate HR and the drivers that saw me move to Cambodia.
In this episode, I share about my disillusionment with corporate HR and the drivers that saw me move to Cambodia. I share the loves, laughs and learnings from expat life and the impact my change in perspective has had on my approach to HR. I don’t think I’ll ever start a podcast with a Bridget Jones reference, but Bridget Jones and edge of reason just came into my mind. You know the movie where she ends up in a Thai prison? Not because I ended up in a prison, but I’m channeling the narrator voice from sit up, Britain in my account of Cambodia. So, Cambodia, the kingdom of wonder, is enchanting with ancient temples like Angkor Watkins, vibrant markets and lush landscapes. Its rich history, warm hospitality and resilient spirit captivate visitors, offering unforgettable experiences and endless discoveries amidst a tapestry of cultural treasures and natural beauty. Sounds like a travel campaign, right? Pretty bloody good one at that. But that travel experience may in fact be marred by issues like poverty, overcrowding at tourist sites, scams, occasional safety concerns and challenges with infrastructure and sanitation, not to mention a recent history that can be so confronting that it can be difficult to process.
So why would you go? Why did I go? I mentioned in my last episode that I’d been working in an organisation driving culture change for a CEO and exec who did not particularly care, I’m pretty sure I described the work as soul destroying. At the time, it was a toxic environment that was dysfunctional, it lacked communication, it fostered mistrust, and the exec team were prioritising personal agendas over organisational goals. It was outright thwarting productivity and impacting morale in the process. It was awful. I was extremely unhappy, but I convinced myself that I was covering it well in front of my team. This little 360-degree feedback profiling, though, quickly blew that theory out of the water. I swore there’d been a mix up with the results because as an OD specialist I did profiling assessments often and I’d done this one before and it didn’t look anything like me. There must be some mistake. Although to be fair, my own self-assessment didn’t look a lot like me either, and the impact of that situation and the environment I was in was clear to see. So, I reached out to a really trusted consultant to independently debrief me on my results, so I could make sense of them. And after sharing with her my goals and ambitions in life, she broke all the coaching codes and she just turned to me and she just said, the fuck is you doing here? And I was like, what? I couldn’t answer her. But what was I doing there? Like, it didn’t fit my values, it didn’t fit my ideals. And being there was meaning. I was trying to contort myself into something that I wasn’t, and it was taking a toll, and the team were onto me, so I took pause to reflect. I owed it to myself to do that more than anyone else. Now I know that Cambodia was a happy place. It always saw me return, rejuvenated and reinvigorated for life. It energised my soul in a way that nothing else did here in Australia. And it gave me the boost I needed to be resilient for the year ahead. You see, I’d been doing annual volunteer trips to Cambodia, so I knew the impact of working with the Khmer people and what I could do in that space.
So, I started to look for pro bono consulting opportunities so that I could lend my knowledge and skills in a more meaningful way. And while doing so, I stumbled across an expired ad on LinkedIn for an organisational development manager. So, I reached out to the international charity, and I offered to support them with any remote consulting if they needed any assistance. And the contact person asked if I was keen to chat and explore the idea of moving to Cambodia for a couple of years. I told them they were crazy, like, in my mind, it was booming in Western Australia. I was at the top of my career in earnings, and I was in the process of doing property development. That’s a lot of money going out and no money coming in. There was no chance. But I figured, there was no harm in having a chat, right, just to find out a bit more. So, I did. I was intrigued, so I figured, well, there’s no harm in doing the math, just to find out if I could survive the two-year term financially if I did it, all things being equal, it looked like I could survive it, just. And then I turned on the tv that night as I considered this crazy move to the kingdom of wondering. And on the project that night, just as I turned on my tv for the first time, was Scott Neeson, the founder of Cambodian Children’s Fund, which is where I’d been talking about going to work. He was the Aussie Hollywood executive who’d left his career to rescue children from poverty and exploitation. He’s providing education and healthcare and giving them hope for a brighter future. It was the epitome of serendipity. Oh, great rhyme. But the next night, I spoke to my potential boss, Scott Neeson, and the day after that I resigned. And then a few days later I told my parents and five weeks later I was living in Phnom Penh. It was 2014 and life as I knew it had been turned on its head.
In the two years I worked at Cambodian Children’s Fund, I was nothing short of impressed at the programmes, the passion and most of all, the people, extraordinary people, united in a common purpose to transform lives. And I was so honoured to be a small part of it. And I still am an active sponsor and an advocate for young girls who have faced unimaginable challenges. My heart will always be in Cambodia because those girls are in Cambodia. When I finished my two-year contract with CCF, I wasn’t ready to return to Australia. So, I remained in the country, and I started freelancing in Southeast Asia and Australia. Cambodia was a cheap base, flights were economical. I welcome the travel and the diversity of cultural and organisational experiences. I’d built a super bland and corporate brand back then, trading as four C Asia Pacific. The four C stood for see if I can remember, consulting, coaching, capability and collaboration. The latter picked up all the random projects that were off brief yet captured my interest. Things like street art tours and female empowerment.
My first board role was with the first all-female contemporary dance company in Cambodia called new Cambodian artists, and they addressed social and political issues. They pushed the boundaries of what it means to be a woman in Cambodia. And as artists, their storytelling is super powerful and with the guidance from their Dutch creative director, Bob, they have created something truly incredible, a space for storytelling and sisterhood and solidarity. But it’s come at a cost. they’ve been blacklisted in Siemri, so now they’re taking on the capital. And it’s been phenomenal to see their work recognised internationally. And I am in awe of their aspiration to create more contemporary art pieces to challenge gender-based norms. It is so inspiring. I’ll share their details in the podcast notes, but think bold and provocative productions, tackling societal taboos and political realities. they’re brave and talented women making a real difference to the artistic landscape in Cambodia. And you might wonder what all this has got to do with HR and what is she on about? But the systems that create and support gender biases are alive and well in our organisations. Yep, somehow, we continue to try and fix women. There’s something to be said for biases and corruption that’s visible. You see it for what it is, you can tackle it. You can see how to address it. But when you’re in a country or an organisation where we don’t acknowledge social issues or organisational issues openly, how can we collectively work to address them? That’s our opportunity.
Living as an expat in Cambodia changed my perspective on life in several ways.
Living as an expat in Cambodia shifted my whole perspective on life in several different ways. The first would have to be, obviously, around cultural richness. Experiencing a vibrant culture so different from your own just broadens your understanding of diversity and tolerance. It fosters this connection and enriches your experiences. You’ve got deeper understanding and empathy, but it’s also. It inspired me to have kind of a profound sense of belonging amidst all of these differences. There was an inclusivity and a welcoming nature to the expat community, where it’s like you’re isolated. Let me bring you in. And it categorically changed the way that I looked at workplace culture and the missed opportunities in Australia, especially to experience and celebrate indigenous culture. an obvious one as well, would be around economic disparity. Obviously. Witnessing varying levels of wealth and poverty gave me gratitude and empathy and altered my look on materialistic possessions and privilege. The bogan in me is always rated a commodore over a Porsche, but the level of waste we create and throw away in the western world is mind blowing. So, I’m not really impressed by people who flaunt their wealth, especially fast cars, but there’s a repurposing and resourcefulness in developing nations that is so impressive to watch.
And to be honest, I met some of the richest people in the world in my time in Cambodia, obviously not the Khmers. It was people coming globally to Cambodia to make a difference. And for these special people, some of them who are the most wealthy, you wouldn’t even know they had a dime. They were quietly using their wealth to change lives. They were flying under the radar, with no expectation of fanfare or fuss. They just wanted to use their wealth for good. And it fundamentally changed my perceptions of rich people who, until then, to be honest, I judged pretty harshly.
I’m now not ashamed to say that I want to create significant wealth because I know how much more of a difference you can make if you have it. And in my work with Cambodian children’s Fund, I watched them transform thousands of the most impoverished kids into tomorrow’s leaders. They were taking kids living on rubbish dumps in Stengmanshe and giving them education and food security, healthcare, shelter opportunities. They’ve been doing it for over 20 years now, having been funded by Scott Neeson in 2004, and together with his country manager, Kram Sok Chanern, they have built and managed a holistic care model that addresses all the barriers that keep the kids out of school. It’s game changing, and being a part of changing lives is life changing. And many of the staff had come through CCF as students. They’d come from nothing and then chose to give back as teachers and employees in their chosen fields. And it’s my appreciation for serving others that was fully realised in my time in Cambodia. I would undertake some kind of staff leadership development training or do different initiatives. And often I’d get back to my desk and there would be emails waiting for me that were just filled with joy and gratitude, with some telling me that working with me had changed their lives. I’m not very good at taking compliments, something I’m working on, but it is very humbling.
And so when you then look at your time delivering forced leadership training in Australia, you’re often faced with ego, and sentiment. Like, I’ve been a senior manager for over 30 years. What could you possibly teach me about leadership? Well, some emotional intelligence would be a good start, but you can see how the Cambodian experience for me was steeped in joy and happiness, because there is a thirst for learning and growth in Cambodia that I’ve never seen before. So, my ability to make a real and sustainable difference was visible from the get go. And a warning for anyone interested in joining one of my Cambodia leadership experiences. Prepare to be sucked in. You will be absolutely sucked in. It is life changing all your money back.
Despite scarce healthcare and pervasive mental health stigma, Cambodians exhibit remarkable optimism.
One of the biggest perspective changes is really also around resilience and optimism. Observing the resilience and positivity of Cambodian people in the face of challenges inspires a newfound appreciation for life’s simple joys and the power of perseverance. Despite scarce healthcare and pervasive mental health stigma, Cambodian people exhibit remarkable optimism and resilience, and it’s rooted in the history of overcoming adversity. Their strong communal bonds and cultural resilience. It empowers them to endure and persevere through challenges. The Khmer Rouge and the genocide in Cambodia was, in my lifetime, just was, 1975 to 79, and, it led to mass killings and forced labour and societal collapse, millions of deaths. They targeted intellectuals, ethnic minorities, religious groups, creative thinkers and artists of all kinds and anyone perceived to be enemies of the regime, women, children, specifically targeted to eliminate perceived threats and to help them reshape society. According to their radical ideology. And there’s not one Cambodian I have met in the 15 years that I’ve been travelling there that hasn’t experienced direct family loss, and the devastating loss of life significantly reduced the population’s median age, and it decimated an entire generation. Entire generations.
When I lived in Cambodia, 60% of the population was under 25 years old. Today, in 2024, I think the median age is about 27. Like, think about what that means in Khmer organisations for a minute. Professionals who were alive in the late seventies were unlikely to have survived unless they’re part of the regime. So, professionals in the country now would have been born since that time. They would be in their mid-forties at best. Like me noting that the bulk of the population’s in their twenties. And I don’t know about you, but I learned a lot from those older than me in all the organisations where I’ve worked. Even if that’s what not to do, imagine going through your career with nobody to learn from, like, nobody to look up to, just books, your studies, the Internet. It’s why professionals in Cambodia have such a genuine appetite for mentorship and guidance, because they don’t inherently have it available to them. Who knew that having crusty old leaders was a privilege, and I’m more acutely aware of my white privilege now than I’ve ever been. So, you can keep your fancy cars and your misery.
The happiest and the most generous people I’ve met are those who have got the least
The happiest and the most generous people I’ve met are those who have got the least, yet they know what’s the most important, and that’s namely relationships and connection to community. And I know how powerful being a part of the Cambodian, the Khmer community can be and reimagine HR is here for it. Michelle Obama was in Cambodia in the time that I was there to support the let girls learn initiative. And, she said, choose people who lift you up. And Khmer people had a way of lifting me up like no other. And that’s what I want to do for my HR colleagues who might feel like they’re drowning under the weight of workload and expectation. Like us, HR professionals deserve to be happy too, and the happier and more valued we feel, the more influential and impactful that we become. True story. Like, I know now that happiness is a competitive advantage. There are key aspects of that that flow into my work on employee engagement, both as a concept and a metric in our organisations. And I’m not talking about the happiness indices either. I’m talking about leaning into the research and the work on happiness and the principles that fuel success and performance at work.
You can check out Shaun at book the Happiness Advantage if you want to unpack it more, but we’re always told to work hard, and you’ll be successful. And if you’re more successful, you’ll be happy, right? Recent research in positive psychology has it the other way around. Happiness fuels success, not the other way around. Happiness fuels performance. Happiness fuels success. So now that I’ve found the sweet spot and I’m happy in the work that I do, success has followed. And that’s what I’m seeing happen with the people that I’m working with, especially my coaching clients. And if you do happen to be a leader in your field that’s looking to get inspired and give back, then the Cambodia leadership experience will be a game changer for your career in your soul. So, you can contact us via the website if you want to learn more.
I returned to Australia with a partner, a pregnancy and a renewed passion for HR
In my next episode, I returned to Australia with a partner, a pregnancy, and a renewed passion for doing HR differently. But it didn’t go quite as I expected.
Turns out there hadn’t been much evolution in HR in the four to five years I was away.
Imagine that.